The Truth about Synthetic Oil

[eurocarrera]

The Truth about Synthetic Oil

Now that got your attention!!!

Answer – there really is none. So make a choice, you don’t even have to take “chances” as some people on this board always say. All oils available today are approved to be used in basically any engine (lets start a spreadsheet – yippee). I would say even go so far as to say that the inexpensive house labeled stuff that you buy at Walmart is even approved by the SAE to be used in Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, VW, blah, blah, blah. Of course anyone who owns a Turbo, a ROW car, or races will chime in because they have found the miracle oil – which is cool, because if you are happy, that is all that’s matter in life now doesn’t it; Insert your name here “parting with our money makes me feel good inside as I know my car is taken care of”. And we “feel” as though we have made the right choice.

All Oil is a marketing gimmick dreamed up by ad people to sell more of their “stuff” so they don’t get fired and lose their jobs (both dino and synthetic); the basic rule of capitalism is sales, and the reason why ad people and lawyers stay in business – I am sure anyone in those chosen fields could comment if they wanted to agree with or refute the above statement. Hell, my 401K probably has stock in every oil company in business,

Really, now would someone please tell me what the difference is between regular Mobil 1, and Mobil1 European mix? (I could not stop from laughing when I saw this in my local parts house) – is the air in Germany different, or do they have a smaller hole in the ozone?


Who am I?
Nobody. I just read what I see. I am not a mechanic, a lawyer, a racer, in advertising, nor do I work for an oil company. Do not trust me. I am only writing my opinion.


Why am I writing this?
Because I think newbie’s need a place to reference back to rather than having these multiple page threads go on and on. Let’s be serious – even the experts can’t even agree. We are adults – do we really need to argue over the choices we have made? Loren is a knowledgeable guy who likes to state his opinion. He also likes to PRESS his point – who cares – let him, but don’t fall into his trap of arguing back (on a side note, it sounds like he wants to be the Dad of the board and tell everyone how to tie their shoes. I have a dad – I don’t need another one). Once again, who cares? I have other things to worry about, and I thought this board was for constructive not destructive character abuse.


So here we go……

What are the real truths?
* Oil of any type is used to transfer heat produced by the internal combustion engine away from the critical parts of the engine so they do not wear out – Please refute this fact by adding to this post.

* Internal combustion engines produce two things in the crankcase – water and carbon (or lets say that these things find their way into the oil. – Please refute this fact by adding to this post.

* Oil will eventually wear out and no longer be useful because of the previous thought. – Please refute this fact by adding to this post.

* You should change your somewhere between 3,000 to 15,000 miles depending upon how much guilt and fear you have from the above statement. One guy in Britain (the oil Bible guy) seems to think that the magic number is 5,000 miles – My guilt kicks in about this time as well.

* Synthetic oils leak – this is my experience. Other people have stated the same thing. Personally, I don’t care how big the molecules are – they don’t mow my lawn or pay my salary.

* Bruce Anderson has an opinion. Bruce seems like a nice guy. Bruce Anderson is probably in retirement from actually working on cars, but he talks to a lot of people (similar to Loren). Do you think he changes his own oil in his Boxster? Do you think Bruce owns an early model (pre 1990) 911?

* Bruce has more experience than I do. No, I have never received Porsche parts from a shipwreck, but I do like fish.

* Everyone on the Pelican BBS has an opinon – we wouldn’t be human if we didn’t

* I fell into the marketing hyperbole of buying a K&N filter and a cool collar, and they are now in the trash – as they don’t work – my car ran worse, it had less power, and it wasn’t any cooler. I am sad as I threw away my money.

* Steve Wong is one of the most helpful people I have ever met in the Porsche world. I like his chip, and I “think” it makes my car go faster. I don’t care what oil he uses.

* The year is 2004 – people are making advancements at a dramatic pace – Killer Computer in 1990 = $4,000, Killer Computer in 2004 = $900, a zillion times faster, cloning, heart replacements, cures for this and that. Advancements all more recent than from when Bruce was actually wrenching on cars.

* Engines wear out from being turned on

* People have torn down engines at various mileage intervals. Some people use dino oil and have engine wear while others do not. Some people use synthetics, some engine have wear while others do not.

* All manufacturers have MSDS sheets available which allow us (the consumer) to see what tests the oil have passed, and what their specifications are. Some oil have better numbers than other oils in certain performance categories. Surprisingly, I know of some dino oils which have numbers in those categories almost equal to that of synthetic oils.

* Oils have a “flash point” where the oil turns from a liquid into a vapor (not good), you really should look at this, as this is a defining factor as to how hot your engine could get before it stops working.

* ALL of the reports on the Pelican site, and other sites which I have read do not have the current MSDS numbers for the oils which they are comparing. Formulas must have changed as technology has advanced.

* Car Mechanics get paid a lot. Most all are arrogant and rude – some are not. It’s a crap shoot asking for advice or information. See Swepco note.

* Like electronics, there is a markup on oil. On electronics it is something like 800%. Labor, parts, etc. Dino oil uses crude petroleum (engineers chime in to correct me please) as it’s base stock, whereas synthetics use a mystery formula of man made products. Since we presently have a shortage of crude oil in the US, wouldn’t it make more sense that dino oil would be more expensive. Why does Synthetic cost so much? I find this really funny, because I just put Redline 75W90NS in my 915 tranny ($30 for 4 quarts) as Swepco (Dino oil) is $50 in my area. BTW, the Redline shifts just fine, I just change it when I feel guilty or whenever the manual says to do so. The factory people have done more testing then I have, and apparently a few mechanics.

* Of the 4 Porsche shops I called this past week, 3 of them thought Swepco was Synthetic. I can give you their number if you like

* I know of no “independent” studies which have been done on a 911 engine where people have run them side by side for 100,000 miles and the tear them down to see which one has worn more

* Consumer reports did a study like the one above on some car (I don’t remember which one, but I am pretty sure it wasn’t air cooled), and after tear down, both engines were worn at the same rate.

* If you lose your drain plug and all of the engine runs out of your engine, your engine will seize – That Teflon company that claims that its product sticks to your engine was sued, and they can’t run that commercial any longer.

* What oil do I run? Does it really matter – I’m happy, and I don’t feel guilty, and my car runs great.

* I live in San Carlos, CA. If you are ever around drop me a PM, I am always free Saturday mornings, and I will shoot the sheet with anyone. I will show you my car.

Best of luck to everyone. BTW, I have referrals for several therapists in the area.....

Blue? Do you trust that we have provided enough rope for you……….
(Old School)

[svandamme]

dude... i'm impressed

but you'll have to clarify that drainplug loosing engine running out of your engine thing... have a hard time visualizing it

[ischmitz]

slow day up there, hm.....

[eurocarrera]

just had a lot on my mind. it was getting ready to explode. now it's on your plate......hahahahah

[c2 rower]

Right on, brother! I wish I had you as a neighbor. It's an interesting point you bring up about "experts". The good thing about being a novice or newbie is that you are not afraid to ask questions or do research or re-examine issues that you thought you knew all the answers to. I remember the time I asked the Chrysler service manager if there was any special procedure for replacing the brake fluid on my Caravan and he said "don't bother, you never have to replace brake fluid". One thing I have learned is that the more you learn, the more you realize how little you know.

[Elombard]

Yes I think it is quite hilarious that Porsche recomends Mobil 1. I bet they get a fat check from Mobil and free oil. Also there dealerships make big bucks on the oil. I know its good I just dont see how it is worth that premium?

Anybody know what the Formula one teams use for oil? Its probably secret.

[eurocarrera]

svandamme, that is funny. The only reason I brought that one up was that my friend Dave had his oil replaced at a "Jiffy Lube" out here in Northern California, and they didn't tighten down his drain plug. It was a new 1999 Jetta, and on his way out towards highway 5 (no more than about 50 miles), his dash lit up like a x-mas tree, and the engine seized in about 2-3 minutes shortly thereafter. Didn't even have time to safely pull over and take a look at things.

All I could say was OUCH, sorry, and of course "do you think they will cover it?". They of course did, but he and I change the oil on his Audi now.

[pwd72s]

Decades ago, I was at one of those dealership PCA "tech sessions". This was when the 911 was a new model, most attending the session were running 4 banger Porsches of the air cooled variety. The question was asked what do do if on a road trip and the owner's favorite brand of oil wasn't available? If memory serves, the popular oil then was straight 30 weight, Valvoline probably the most popular. (The driver's manual in my '72 S says to use 30 weight, the sticker on the air cleaner reads Shell) The response was probably one of the best I've ever heard at a tech session when oil comes up: "I would surmise that even the "wrong" lubricant would be superior to no lubricant at all." I couldn't agree more, since there seems to be a wide variance of opinion as to what consitutes a right or a wrong lubricant.

[Jim Sims]

Actually, the main purpose of oil in IC engines is to reduce friction between moving surfaces; heat transfer is a beneficial side effect. Motor oil is actually a rather poor heat transfer medium: thermal conductivity and specific heat are too low and viscosity is too high. Cheers, Jim

[eurocarrera]

Thanks Jim, but I thought everyone knew that one. What does "thermal conductivity and specific heat are too low and viscosity is too high" mean, and does it matter? or should I weigh that very carefully when I go to buy oil? Do you have any references to whitepapers on this subject? Thanks!!!

[Jim Sims]

One would be quite suprised what is lacking in the common knowledge; to much of society, the workings of the modern world are indistinguishable from magic (to paraphrase Arthur C. Clarke).
Hence the danger of advertising related to technical products (as you point out). My point is in your litany about IC engine oil you mostly ignored the most critical function - friction and wear reduction by virtue that heavily loaded journal bearing surfaces (crankshafts) slide on a film of oil. People come here for help, and to learn and be entertained.

Thermal conductivity: the capability of transferring heat atom to to atom (or molecule to molecule) through the material assuming there is no mass transport (the material itself is staying still). Important characteristic in moving heat from the surface to be cooled (or heated) to the bulk of the coolant.

Specific heat: the amount of heat a quantity of material can absorb per degree of temperature rise. Important characteristic as the greater the specific heat the less coolant is required per quantity of heat absorbed and moved.

Viscosity: internal forces (attractions between molecules) in fluids which resist flow; makes the fluid harder to pump and reduces mixing so heat moved by mass transport (coolant moving around) is reduced. Essential for lubrication but impairs heat transfer.

If one is interested in these topics I would recommend parts of two basic engineering books: "Machine Design" by Joseph Shigley (has a good section on journal bearings including some interesting historical notes) and "Principles of Heat Transfer" by Frank Kreith and Mark Bohn. One of the early chapters of Kreith gives a good overview of heat transfer and some good comparisons of various heat transfer mechanisms. Warning; there is math in both books.

As for IC engine lubricating oil I agree it is for most people and machines purely an economic issue. Use the oil or the closest equivalent to what came in the car originally and follow the change intervals recommended by the manufacturer for one's service situation. Hobby cars are a different issue; as with most hobbies people's approach to them is not rational. But that's okay, they're hobbies.

By the way I run dino oil (Castrol GTX 20W50) in my '76 911 and change the oil and filter every 3000 miles/four months. I am about to take delivery of another German car that will come with a synthetic/dino blend installed; I will continue to use this formulation (blend) but may swap the air and oil filters out twice as often as required (NM is a dusty place).

Cheers, Jim

[eurocarrera]

Jim, I truly appreciate your response, but I was joking with you. I think that marketing of oil of is a load of crap. All oil is fine. What I was looking for was not a scientific explanation but a band of people to line up behind me and go , "hail to Bill - he doesn't give a Sheeet!!!"

I am just seriously disgusted with these conversations about oil, and people's explanations justifying why they think what they use is better, blahdeblahdeblah. I just don't care - use what you want - feel good about it - move on.

I guess the threads will just go on and on until some guru steps up and says use X brand. Until then everyone is just going to be a sheep following the sheep dog......:-)

make my choice for me, make my choice for me, make my choice for me.......

[svandamme]

yeah, i'll be chucking olive oil in mine
olives never need a rebuild, so their oil must be tha bizniz

[Randy Webb]

Hmmmm... Los Alamos.... you're not a bomb builder are you Jim?

Just a short followup on that: don't worry about white papers on the differences in heat transfer among oils. As JS pointed out, the heat transfer function is not primary.

If you want the best lubrication and least breakdown, get a synthetic. If you are worried about seal leakage (or paradoxically for a Porsche owner, cost, also use a dino oil). Guru Bruce A. already suggested Kendall as the dino brand to use (perhaps because of its high Zinc content).

And if you followup on JS's reading list, Karlekar & Desmond is much more accessible than the various Kreith editions. For even simpler entrees to the area of heat transfer, see the books by Campbell and by Monteith. Search Webb + those keywords to get the cites I posted a year or two ago. Campbell aslo has some interesting aerodynamic background (in discussing convection "wind").

[nostatic]

you failed to mention tasting your oil. minus 2 points.

[AFJuvat]

Well, I'm a mechanic - I wouldn't say I get paid a lot - I do pretty good. Don't consider myself rude or arrogant either - rude and arrogant mechanics don't survive in this business.

Here is my take on synthetic.

- Dino juice creates sludge
- Small leaks will sludge up and stop or be reduced to a trickle
- Synthetic oil will disolve sludge
- If you have a small leak, synthetic will make it appear "worse"

- Dino Juice forms coke under high temp conditions
- Coke causes premature wear on bearings on things like turbochargers
- Synthetics will not coke up
- I consider synthetics a good addition to turbocharged motors
- synthetics have a longer "life" in the motor - 1 year or 5000 miles is a good rule of thumb.
- either synthetic or dino juice will be more than acceptable on a car that recieves regular oil changes
- The new cars get synthetic if only because I am not replacing a persons motor because Porsche tells them the reason the engine died is because I put the wrong oil in it.


- 911 is not a good engine to compare engine wear - the components are literally bathed in oil - thats why the engines last so long

AFJuvat

[Jim Sims]

No, but I play one on TV. Can you say fissile or "order of magnitude"? Jim

[efhughes3]

I'm not affiliated with Bruce Anderson in any way. But, I've read a lot of what he's put out, and I personally think he's devoted most of his life to Porsche's, and I think it would be hard to find another with more technical knowledge on these cars. Take the time to read some of the technical questions he fields in Excellence every month.

Even IF he didn't currently wrench on cars, I don't know that his years of experience would evaporate. He does put on several clinics a year, so he is still involved mechanically. It also wouldn't surprize me if he has one or more pre-1990 Porsches.

[Randy Webb]

LAst time I talked to him he was drving a Boxster. But there are lots of all sorts of 911s around for him to drive even if he doesn't "own" a 911 anymore -- and he may - I didn't ask him. He certainly serves as a clearinghouse for a lot of info on Porsches. And anything he doesn't know is probably known by his neighbors and colleagues, Jerry Wood and Crag Watson (Smart Racing Products).

[jazzbass]

Originally posted by nostatic
you failed to mention tasting your oil. minus 2 points.

Now I'm impressed you remember that guy. I wonder if he ever bought (or was it sold) his 911...