997 visual/styling improvements?
 

Ok, just had a bit `O Photochop fun with a pic of the new 997 in OT, and thought I would cross-post here:

Original:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088127029.jpg

EVO II:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088127176.jpg

EVO III:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088127203.jpg

Comments?

I think the 997 looks just fine... However, your EvoIII version's butt is too fat... The shorter nose works well. What else did you do the EVO2??

The second pic just has a shorter nose and front (upturned) valance flattened. The third pics has that same treatment for the rear.

It just looks like you added a bodykit like the gardeners here in l.a. do to their pickup trucks. Definately looked better stock, just lower it :)

i like EVO III the best.

the original has that sloping thing happening in the back and front, looks retarded.

Geoff & Amir,

You guys really think it looks good as-is?

Don't get me wrong, it's a step in the right direction over the 996 IMO, but it still needs work. As on-ramp mentioned, it looks goofy (to me) with the up-sloping front and rear valances. The front looks especially good at generating lift to me. Then again, I'm no wind-tunnel jockey.

EVO II Here... The short nose looks better

The modifications look good. But I really like the 997. My only question is why they used a VW stick. The shifter looks exactly like the one in my VW.

Porsche:


VW:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/11088135187.jpg

Speaking of modifications, I tried my hand at a little photo editing and made the 997 a little retro.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/21088135259.jpg

Now all you need is a duck.

Eric,

If you look at the specs, this car has the lowest drag coef of all the cars. It has little air-dams in front of each tire, the slope in the front could be a nice flat front, but the rear looks good as it is...:D

no water out the nose on that one, but i did choke momentarily.

lol

can you say positive camber?

I have to say... the interior looks weak IMHO... Looks too "modern" and kind-of cheap. I'm sure in person it's better, but from the pic it looks cheesy...

I took a closer look at the above picture... It is a VW interior... BONEHEAD, anyone have a shot at the 997 interior???

You're on the right track. The 997 is better than the 996, but it still doesn't have enough of Porsche's self-proclaimed '911 DNA' in it.

Here's my try:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088137251.jpg

I like the blunted nose.

You shouldn't encourage me - which duck would you like?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/11088137534.jpg

or this one

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads3/21088137562.jpg

LOL.

Jack, that looks just about right... just need Porsche-esque wheels now. Good effort.

`84, yer killin' me! LOL.

Here we go:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088142512.jpg

Eric,

Now we are talking!!!! The front is perfect... Like the GT EVO 98 profile.:cool:

Eric, that Pic looks awsome, the ducktail and carrera stripes look perfectly at home on the 997 not to mention those Fuchs show how timeless they truly are...Factory Take Note!!! But I still hate the new rear bumper to rear fender meeting point, it's too high and the angle is really weird. It definately should be like the 996, even with the BOTTOM of the rear lights, not the TOP of the rear lights sloping downwards. I hate that, I know it's small, but it makes such a huge difference to me. It's the attention to details that have always been Porsche's strong suit and this one just bugs me. Am I alone on that? Other than that, I love the shape of the 997, however I don't think it looks as good as the current 996, probably just not used to it yet, but there are several details that I do like much better than the 996 like the mirrors and door handles.
Scott aka Mouse

Well said. I agree.




That "improved" rear end has the correct line for a 911, but those rear lamps need a bit of work :D

Now that is true retro. Looks real good Eric. Nice photowork.

I was at the factory last week and I thought they looked great. Sorry no pictures, I forgot my cap cam. Better looking ass than the 996. The dealers are supposed to be getting one for the show room late summer/fall.
I hope this will cause the 993 prices to fall. Yes 993 owners it's all about me.

Eric, could you photoshop this picture so that it looks like there is a Porsche horizontally opposed 6 cyl. engine in there ????

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088186886.jpg


max ;) ;)

hey jack, the taillights in your second pic remind me of the new 5 series tailights. anyone else notice that?? the front end looks great when it is blunt and i agree, im not sure yet what to do with the rear to make it look a bit better. you can always go jack's route and make it reallllllllllly wiiiiiiiiiiide. i think some nice flares would look great on this car.

Could someone please modify the taillights on the improved car in Jack's picture? That car really has the roofline of a 911, unlike the 996/997 where the line is interrupted by the 928 style rear end.

Where's the hood vent? 911 DNA includes a hood vent and a 1/4 window up front.

Why not add accordion bumpers too so that it looks like a proper 911!

I know. . .why don't you guys forget that you own a car that is/was produced by an engineering company that must evolve (change) to remain current and vital? All these changes you want were implemented in 1974. Things have changed, dramatically, since then. And, oh yeah, I own an '83 SC and wouldn't trade it for the worldl.

I own a new-generation Porsche, but the 996 leaves me cold.

The 997 has definite potential, with it's "hips" that owe a lot to the original transition to SC/Carrera flares.

So why not also go 'retro' with a ducktail? (I also think the new wheels look too much like those on a Ford Expedition.) I shortened the nose (again) just a touch nad fixed that wonky diagonal body seam in the rear.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088199739.jpg

You guys are all killing me. You can't open Pelican without reading that the only real Porsches are pre-mid year long nose cars. I thought Porsche did a good job of making a nod to that look with the 997. Now you guys turn it back into an SC!

Techweenie... That's getting better. The straight body line for the rear is much better. I think I like the straight line with the normal rear fender sweep as apposed to Jack's sweep for the rear. It lends itself better for the car.

What would be interesting is to send this into Porsche and have them stylize a 3-d mock up and run some drag co's on it... I'm sure the flat front would be a plow compaired to the newer front end.

I love the duck (ruf does too evidently) and the turbo's are a nice touch... I'd never sell my 84, but I would take a 997 all day long.

To the "Porsche needs to advance" crowd... No kidding, but the car that they produce doesn't need to be some lame bastardization that "loosly" resembles a 911. They can keep to the form and do all the advances as well...

Notice how many changes have been made in the 996 series already... obviously the dragging sales have prompted that. And I can almost guarantee that the guys that be, look at sites such as this, that truly keep the heritage alive, for some input...

Porsche hasn't got the new car sorted yet in terms of looks, they KNOW that... Eventually, that car will wind up backdated more than anyone thinks... They will do it until they get a world wide BRAVO, which hasn't happened yet on the world market... Just look at the RUF version 996:D

"Porsche needs to advance." I'm sorry. That simply has nothing to do with the exterior design of the 996 or the 997. The idea that some shapes are 'retro' and some shapes are 'new' is pure baloney, to me.

Porsche needs to make every generation of its cars better than the one before it. I'm completely on board for that.

Making it ugly? Someone's going to have to explain to me why that's become such an essential part of the process.

A design either looks good, or it doesn't. From a styling perspective, there really isn't much that's important beyond that.

I want the 'new is better' crowd to explain the Pontiac Aztek to me. It's a newer design than the classic GTO, and it's also a newer design than a lot of other pre-1999 Pontiacs. So? It's an incredibly ugly vehicle. And pretty much everyone agrees that it's an incredibly ugly vehicle. I don't think anyone finding a mid-'90's Pontiac more attractive than the Aztek means they're fanatically attached to Pontiac's previous design beliefs.

The Aztek is just plain old ugly.

In terms of external styling, I think the 993 design is much more attractive than the 964 that came before it. It's not better looking because it's newer. It's better looking because it's better looking.

In the 996 restyling of the 911, the designers (for a lot of different reasons, I'm sure) decided that they wanted to eliminate fender flares, change the hood shape, extend the nose, put on hockey-stick-shaped headlights, and change the underlying line of the car to incorporate what they called a 'power hump' in the back, and to allow the roofline to continue to rise up after the windshield.

Does anyone seriously believe that they did all this because of some devotion to the forward march of progress? They did it to cut productions costs, conform to different countries' safety mandates, and (of course) to flatter the vanity of the designers themselves (and the corporate managers approving the designs) and, I'm sure, for hundreds of other reasons.

Compared to the 993, though, the 996 is ugly. I don't care if it came before the 993 or after it. It contained a lot of ideas that made the 996 iteration of the 911 design uglier than other iterations of the 911 design.

The 997 is a little better. There's still that stupid Boxster butt sticking up in the back. And the roofline still looks goofy. And the nose is still too long.

But it's better.

Does this mean progress is marching forward, and Porsche is sweeping out the new in order to bravely face the future? Of course not. They've simply redesigned the exterior of the car so that it's not as ugly as the 996. They tried some design features that backfired, and they're getting rid of them.

Design is subjective, and you'll never get 100% unanimity on it. Loads of people love the Aztek. Loads of people think the 996 is the most beautiful 911 variant ever designed. I'm glad for these people. They'll always be able to get a pretty sweet deals on the cars they love -- because the majority of people disagree with them, and prefer just about any Pontiac to the Aztek, and prefer just about any 911 iteration to the 996.

But even if you think the 996 is the sweetest-looking hockey-stick-headlighted car in the world, it doesn't make you modern, or forward-thinking. It just means you love that design. Like I said, a lot of people do.

In my opinion, a fastback design looks better when you don't interrupt the fastback line with a big hump. You can call this idea 'retro' if you want, but then you have to admit that once a company's signed on to the idea of continuing production of one model of car for 40 years, the distinction between new and retro has already been made fairly moot. It's a design that's famous (and popular) because of a few key features. If you abandon those features, the design gets watered down, and it loses its appeal as a design.

Of course, there is a lot more to the 996 and the 997 than their exterior styling. They're both awesome cars, faster, more sophisticated and more comfortable than any of the 911's that came before them. BMW is currently proving that you can sell ugly cars about as easily as you can sell attractive ones. Exterior styling is not the key factor in whether a car sells -- it's only a key factor in whether the car is ugly or not. The 996 is popular, for a lot of good reasons -- but it's also ugly, to many.

The 997 is slightly less ugly. If Porsche were able to put all the goodies from the 997 into a better-looking chassis, I'd be at the head of the line to pick one up. But they haven't, and I'll keep waiting. Hopefully, they'll get it right one day.

Okay. Rant over. Return to your regularly-scheduled threads. :D

Very well said, Jack.

Thanks.

For the record, I'm sure I like a lot of things that other people consider ugly. :rolleyes:

Here's the 997 with some less-Boxstery taillights.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1088211891.jpg

re 996/997
i'm not terribly fond of the body between the wheels, nor am i terribly offended.
it is the front and rear overhang that disturb me most.

the rear "hump" and sky-high bumper and tail lights lose the trademark low flow that the rear of air-cooled era 911s had.
Porsche called it a 'power hump'. if you look at a 996 cab with the top down, you will see that Porsche uses part of the roof to blend into the body, and the hump to cover the remainder of the folded roof. smooth and clever (and cheap). But, incorporating the hump into the coupe just to make the engine lid and some other body work interchangable with the cab was not smooth, not clever, but cheap.
Why a rear engine car has over 3 feet of front over hang is beyond me. it does not look good from almost all angles. I know: aerodynamics. But, there is a point of tradeoff with style. And, if Porsche is so hot on ultimate aerodynamics, why does the new mega dollar Carrera GT have a terribly high cd of over .4 ??
Look at the front overhang of the offical 997 picture posted in this thread. They airbrushed half of the front overhang almost pure black to tone it down.

The whole 996 body shape of "a slightly used bar of soap", minimal hard lines, is a left over from the early '90s sedan exercise. Most all of the cars that followed this design theme by any manufacturer has not aged well.

And the interiors of the 996 and 997? After 30+ years of evolution while holding a steady course with the 911-964-993 models, Porsche has had two 'mood-swings' in 7 years. Both appear to have some virtues, but a lot of things bother me. Worst, overall they do not say Porsche nearly as strongly as the historical cars.

If i could write like Jack, I would make a lot more sense :D
But i am sure you get my point.
And, as usual, this is just my 2 cent opinion.

max

Actually, I think your post reads better than mine, Max.

I just had a look at the "official" pics in the latest C&D. The interior is a boxter/Cayanne all the way. Looks cheesy, just as I feared. It's not gimicky neccessarily, just too "refined". But there inlies the problem. Porsche has indeed fallen to the "refined" sports sedan, with a slightly more streamlined body. Interestingly, the catch script for the foto's was something like Porsche goes "retro". Ya, all the way back to 95!!!

Does this mean this is bad? Not really, just not true to the pure Porsche heritage... Too bad... :(

JackOlsen
Somehow you managed to put into words how I feel about the whole 996/997 debate. Thanks.

The 911 is an icon. The name stands for something special. You can't just change the car completely and then continue to use the name 911.

Imagine Coca Cola doing to the "Coke" what Porsche has done to the 911. Would people debate that? You bet they would.

Somehow Porsche and the 911 now seem to be in a kind of no man's land. The 911 isn't a real 911 anymore, but it's not a completely new model either. So what does that leave us? A compromise.

Perhaps it would be best for all if Porsche simply gave up on the "911 DNA" and came up with something COMPLETELY NEW. Something that screams Porsche, but without actually having to be a 911.

What about a mid engined Cayenne powered sports car that would kick some Ferrari a**? It's just an idea.

:)

Back end of the new pne looks like a Lexus!!! http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/a_pukey.gif

SmileWavy SmileWavy