75/77 911s?

[tswaney]

I'm a BMW guy who is thinking about starting to look at 911s. So please don't tear me up for asking what may be obvious.

Here's the car: 1975 911S, engine has been replaced with a '77 911 engine, with an 11 blade fan and chain tensioners added.

I don't yet know if the '77 has been rebuilt. But will find out if/when I go visit it.

Question is: Does the '77 engine have the identical concerns (valve guides, head studs, other heat issues...) as the '75.

Don't know if I want to waste my time driving to look at it.

Tom

[Paulporsche]

Genreally the 75-77s have the same problems. However, if the 77 engine has been rebuilt, it should be much better than it was originally, espescially if the smog equipment has been removed. You are right in noting that the 11 blade fan and Carrera chain tensioners are pretty much required now.

All these items should be reflected in the price.

Find out what was done in the rebuild and let us know.

Don't forget the PPI.

I have a 77. I drove it for 5 years and when the engine started smoking, I swapped in a rebuilt, enlarged 3.2 from an 80. For the past 10 years and 66000 miles, I have driven it daily for 9 months each year.The lightweight chassis, the stock gearing and the enlarged engine make a great combination.

And by the way, welcome.

[cowtown]

Are you looking at my car? (I have a '75 with a 77 Turbo engine).

Keep in mind that the '75 is not a galvanized body, so it is more prone to rust than an SC. This might be a concern depending on where you live. 75 is a great year in CA because it's the newest 911 that is exempt from all emissions testing.

The '75 also has the cool rear pop-out windows. And it's the last year (I think) with a rear-mounted fuel pump.

Sorry, getting off track. Re: your question:

Make sure the '77 engine is really a 2.7 and not an early 3.0 SC engine by checking the type number to the right of the fan. If it turns out to be a 3.0, it's probably going to be a better engine in the long run because of its aluminum case and less tendency to pull head studs. If it's really a '77 2.7, it should be well documented, because it does have the same issues as the '75 engine.

[tswaney]

Thanks Paul and Colin, I think I'll go look at it with notebook in hand and report what I find.

I hadn't even considered the possibility that it could be a 3.0, and at this point am just assuming it is a 2.7.

And of course a PPI if the car interests me.

Tom

[vash]

in 75, the non cali cars didnt have the heat reactors, but all 77's did. and that is bad. but removable.

[tswaney]

Well, I looked at it and drove it this afternoon. The '77 engine is a 2.7 and has not been rebuilt! It was added in '95 with the 11 blade fan, and when I asked if the chain tensioners were of the carrera/oil pressure variety, he couldn't remember, and I didn't know exactly how to tell. I wouldn't have known how or where to look to see if the heat reactors were still there or not also.

Trans. rebuilt a couple of years ago to rectify a noisy 5th.

It didn't start with extreme ease (battery charger was hooked up when I got there-not driven for some time according to him). And it was a touch rough sounding for about 5-10 seconds. Just not quite crisp. But then it was suddenly at a very smooth idle. So we drove. After getting used to the clutch engagement point, it shifted with little effort and no noise both up and down. It pulled with ease through all of the gears and I let up at around 80 mph.

Perhaps I'm just not used to the bottom pivot pedal, but it didn't feel like it returned all the way to the aft end of travel after releasing it. Could that be an early sign of clutch failure or a stretched cable or...? If I pulled back on it with my foot it would move about 1 inch towards me a stay there.

It was 90-95 degrees here in central Kansas today and the temp gauge didn't rise much above 180 degrees, no special oil cooler. What about in traffic? Oh yeah, I live in Kansas!

I may set up an appointment with my trusted German car wrench for a PPI, or maybe I should run away. How terrified should I be of the unopened '77 2.7 that has been in the car for 9 years? Thoughts?

Tom

[cowtown]

If there's no documented rebuild or proof of miles, I'd be leery of that engine. But if it's a solid car and you want it, you can just price a possible rebuild/engine swap into the purchase price. If the seller won't work with you on adjusting the purchase price like this, you can walk away. This all assumes you won't mind working on the car (or paying to have it worked on) later.

If each cam chain cover had a tiny little copper oil line running to it, fastened by a banjo bolt, the tensioners are of the Carrera type. If not, they aren't.

Let us know how it turns out!

[vash]

ewww, this is getting good.

damn, i hope someone post some pictures of heat reactors. no biggie if they are there, but factor some coin to get them outta there. colin chain tensioner desc is damn good. tell you the truth, i had a 75 that sat for 12 years and it was fine. but i had to do ALL the upgrades, pop off valve, chain tensioners, added external oil cooler. no reactors on the texas car. and a myriad of other things. nice light car. go to the main pelican page, and look for the technical articles, they will have pictures of everything you need to look for. i think.


oh, i would post the guys asking price. these guys know a good deal and a bad one if they hear it. they are religious about it.

cliff

[tswaney]

Thanks guys.

Asking price is $6500. What are your opinions.

I didn't even think about the pop-off valve; I need to dig a bit deeper, do some more research and go take another drive.

Rust issues: none underneath, none in wheel wells as far as I could discern with flashlight and feeling, none in floor pans, none in trunk area, none along underbody edges. Anywhere else to look without removing body panels?

one bubble the size of a nickle on passenger side door jamb inboard of latch, 3 pencil eraser diameter bubbles on bottom/aft edge of drivers door. I guess if there is any "not so horrible" rust issues, these would be them. Seems to be early stage.

The wheels are the original alloy Fuchs and kind of dull.

Tom

[Loual]

At that price it's worth pursuing a PPI. I'd be more curious and cautious about the rust bubbles since the rust you can see is usually just a fraction of the rust you can't see. Is the paint original? If repainted, could have been to hide more extenive rust damage. In any event, if it proves solid and tight, you will have no regrets--I've had my '75 over 20 years and it's been great! Good luck.

[marcesq]

Did you check the suspension, ie shocks, bushings, ball joints.

How about the brakes, can you read the DOT dates on the rubber lines connecting the hard lines to the calipers.

All of these things add up and 6500 might not be a bargin.

If there are 2 rectangular boxes connected to the exhaust ports then the thermal reactors are still intalled. They are heat generators and contributed to the head stud pulling in the 2.7. If they are on the car SSIs and muffler will be about 1k.

Be careful, get a leakdown test before you buy.

[MAS]

I agree... it's cerainly worth checking for the price. Also, a stumbly start is no big deal... but a nice idle and strong pull is good sign.


-MAS

[2.7RACER]

A '75 911S, thats 30 years old.
Let's look at the issues,
1. Magnesium crank case. Soft, pulls head studs.
2. Thermal reactors, extra heat, not good for the engine.
3. Five blade fan, More heat, not good for the engine.
4. Early non pressure fed tensioners, documented problems.
5. 2.7's leak, most old Porsches leak, 2.7 just a little more.
6. Non galvanized body, more likely to rust.
7. Like all high mileage cars things like clutches and big time motor work are just around the corner.
My view, figure the motor and clutch need replacement soon. Looks like the fan and thermal reactors have been taken care of. Need to update to pressure fed chain tensioners. We are looking at $5,000 to as much as $10,000 depending on motor work.
So how is the body and paint? How about the interior? I'm thinking rust is an issue I don't want to contend with. Midwestern cars, rust is a real problem, galvanized or not.
So what would this car be worth with a fresh engine and clutch, decent paint, no rust, decent interior? I'm thinking no more than $10k.
So what would I pay? Do the math. I'm thinking no more than $5K.
BTW my race car is a '76 2.7 with a shelf full of class wins over the last six years.

[vash]

9 years sitting, your brakes will need some major attention, but not expensive at all if DIY. under $100 if the MC is still good.

[tswaney]

Cliff- It hasn't been sitting for 9 years; just the last few weeks. It has been a daily driver for the guy.

The brakes felt pretty good (better than my '76 F150 that goes from 80-55 in around 60 sec.!) But I am confident any problems in these systems would show up in PPI. Right?

Current owner has put around 5-6K miles per year since ownership on that non-rebuilt '77 eng. Odometer reads 140K. No clutch rebuild since he has owned it.

Tom

[KNS]

If he has been using it as a daily driver, that's good. Daily driver in the winter time? Ask him 'bout that. Pop off valve is cheap; I'd get the PPI and go from there. Your mech. will have a list of things that you can negotiate the price with.

[tswaney]

Thanks, you all have armed me with an excellent knowledge baseline.

I think I'll set up a PPI and see where that leads.