Wierd issure re later owner shipping a car to Germany

[Randy Webb]

I sold my very fine '75 to a guy in Colorado, who then resold it to a guy from Germany but apparently never titled it in Colorado. OK, great, nice the car is going "home."

The German seems to be legit and a nice guy but he wants me to sign off on a Shippers Export Declaration and provide my social security number to the freihgt forwarding company. But, hey, I'm not the shipper and I don't own the car anymore.

I certainly do not want to assume any liability if Customs or Homeland Security finds out the car is stuffed with cocaine or anthrax or even Cuban cigars! The Colo. guy verified in an Email that he did sell the car to this guy (and provided his correct name w/o any prompting).

The problem seems to be that the Colo. guy never titled it. As usual the German guy is in a big hurry to get the car out of the US -- costs him $$ to have it stored, he's leaving for Brazil, etc.

I even called the shipping co. but they aren't able to tell me exactly who requires this form (the gov'mint? the Germans? the co. itself?) or the exact significance of me filling it out and signing off on it.

I'd like to help this guy out, but...

Any thoughts or advice on this ??

And, hey, I'm a lawyer, but this is way outside my expertise. I do know enough not to sign anything you don't understand....

[zerort]

NOT YOUR PROBLEM! Don't sign anything like that.
You got your money right? Guy from Colorado never titled it - tell him to get on the ball, his problem not yours.

Do you have a copy of the title? Signed from the buyer in Colorado? If you don't have a copy, go get a replacement from your DMV and then claim it stolen.

If the buyer from Colorado signed your the original and you have a copy, it's his problem not yours.

Other than that don't worry about it. Sounds hokey to me, IMO.

[singpilot]

I'd be willing to bet it has to do with Federal Republic of Germany taxes, or even VAT.

The Colorado guy is the one that should be dealing with this.

[jrdavid68]

If you help, you will regret it. Run away!

[Joeaksa]

I have taken several cars to Germany and never had to provide a SSN. Would not do it, period!

Since you are not the seller I would politely decline to give any personal information and refer the buyer back to the seller. If he has to have it fast, a title company can expedite the new title and the last owner of the car can do the paperwork correctly this time!

JoeA

[Shuie]

no way.

Why did the guy who bought it never get a new title? To avoid impact fee sales tax for buying a car from a different state? Did you turn the plate in to the DMV? Is the car still registered in your name? I don't know how this stuff works there, but in Louisiana, when you cancel the insurance on a car after selling it the insurance company notifies the state and you either turn in the plate at the DMV or they fine you heavily.

[Speedster94]

not needed here in germany , but some US states require it .
better just put the german fellow as Shipper .
harald

[KobaltBlau]

Originally posted by Shuie
I don't know how this stuff works there, but in Louisiana, when you cancel the insurance on a car after selling it the insurance company notifies the state and you either turn in the plate at the DMV or they fine you heavily.

This doesn't happen in Colorado, just FYI. You keep the plate, it just isn't valid.

[BGCarrera32]

Don't fake the social security number, you'll make a mess for some poor old lady somewhere else. Tell the German guy as much as you can, but never your personal info, social # etc. Most importantly, go do a "Force Title Transfer" or equivalent on the car at your local DMV effectively getting it out of your name and ownership.

[svandamme]

you sold it , he sold again > not your problem

[Kraftwerk]

i just shipped a car to Germany and never had to sign anything what so ever and thought that to be kind of wierd. But the title must be xeroxed six times and the
U.S: customs office has to see the original and stamp it. It is work to do all this stuff & time is money, (well kind of) people get paid to do this B.S paper work.
The new guy should get a damn title issued. He just wants to save a little more money by not registering it or insuring it (except for on the boat as the new buyer will probably require) He "flipped" it as they say and made a tidy profit (maybe). Not so fast though, unless he's your pal or your brother you don't really have time for this... At the very least the German guy will certainly understand about playing by the rules.
Tell him the grease from that car has long since been wiped off your hands.

[Randy Webb]

Thanks folks. I sure won't forge a fake SS# - that is likely illegal under some states law (and OR-my residence, CO-intial buyer's resid., and TX-shipping at least are involved here) if not federal.

I alredy sent an Email to the Oregon DMV. I am held harmless for parking and moving violations, and etc. under OR. state law - you never know about other states, tho.

The CO seller sold it for the same amount of cash as he paid to me (he also paid for shipping to CO). But he also got a nice bottle of wine (from me) and a promise of a free trip to Germany (from the German, who said the total would be abotu $24,000).

He said he had to sell it to help out his newly divorced daughter, but some review of his eBay history casts at least a small doubt on that. He may have tried to flip it. I specifically told him I din't want the car flipped and wanted it to go to good home (not part of a written contract, but a handshake is still binding in Scotland and a romise ought to count for something).

At any rate I have additional info on the car that I am going to send to the German guy. He has two other 911s - one seems to be a 1974 Euro RS (has the big bumpers) - I didn't know that existed. Maybe he is confused.

I may do a bit more investigation here. If warranted I will send an inquiry letter to the Colorado DMV - that will alert them to the fact that somebody is evading the tax code....

I offered to send an affidavit that I have no interest in the car to the shipping company. We'll see what happens - at minimum, this is an interesting story.

Don't worry, I'm not gonna be on the hook for anything.

[Por_sha911]

The CO guy is wanting to dodge sales tax. The German guy may be a nice guy or he may be looking for a free identity theft victim.
Once you sold the car, you have NO responsibility. Tell the CO guy to register it and pay the taxes.

[Kraftwerk]

It was the the wine. Wine will make people do funny things.

[Zeke]

As of 7/1/04, Homeland Security has a new face. Expect to ID yourself on all international shipping deals. My wife has to show her driver's license every morning to the same guard to get to her office in the Port of Long Beach. I visited her the other day at work with some old friends from out of town. All of us in the car were required to hand over a DL.

New cameras all over the place and while we were walking outside of her office on the pier, the heliocopter was checking on us TWICE. We weren't hard to spot as we had to wear orange safety vests. They want ot know where everyone is every minute. We were looking at 2 '57 Speedster replicas, a Mercedes gull wing replica, a real 280SL and a 914, all going to Germany.

A SS # to ship a car? You bet, from now on. (BTW, Ca DL's have SS#'s on them or you don't get one, your state too?)

[Randy Webb]

No, Orygun's Drivers Licenses have a number on them but not a SS#. I like that. The state surely has my SS# and it may well be required on the form to get a DL.

I'm gald we have better port security (wish semi-trucks with haxardous or explosive cargo and big chemical plants had better security too).

But who requires the SS# to ship a car? Customs? Anyway I will decline to provide mine.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
No, Orygun's Drivers Licenses have a number on them but not a SS#. I like that. The state surely has my SS# and it may well be required on the form to get a DL.

I'm gald we have better port security (wish semi-trucks with haxardous or explosive cargo and big chemical plants had better security too).

But who requires the SS# to ship a car? Customs? Anyway I will decline to provide mine.

Well, Homeland Security ( List of departments included here ) has required significant upgrades to all activites involving travel and shipping. As of 7/01, all companies both foreign and domestic doing business with the US ports had to have on file an approved security plan and show evidence of it's implication. Last week, 3 ships were turned back out to sea from Long Beach because they arrived unprepared. That's millions of dollars lost all around.

In answer to your question, it is my understnding that the shipping company and/or freight forwarder would have to provide this information. I can find out more tomorrow. Suffice to say, "This ain't no disco" anymore.

It is very likely that this car in CO is not going on a ship anywhere until bills of lading, etc. show a lot more info than ever before

[k9handler]

just stay out of it...Colo guy needs to title it, then sell it. I shipped my 911 from LA to GE and the documentation was easy, a clear title and a customs form w/fees once the car entered GE through Bremen. You are doing the right thing.

[Randy Webb]

Thanks, Zeke. Don't spend any time on it.

k9 -- Sound advice. I have out of town visitors for the next few days anyway - so, I'll be unavialable. You wanna set the dogs on the CO guy? Hope you are safe and bored....

[k9handler]

Randy my family lives in Colo and I am sure my brothers dogs can take care of him! Ha Ha Thanks, 48 days to go!