Engine musings - for the fun of it...

[dd74]

I was in San Diego over the weekend and while there, took a tour of the USS Midway. It's a great tour for those who want to see what it is like aboard a much storied and historical carrier.

While roaming the area below deck where the aircraft are repaired, a couple engines were on display. One I noted was a helicopter engine. I forget the model of the engine - Bell, I think made it - though I didn't see it on Bell's website. Anyway, the engine weighs 250 pounds and belts out 1,100 hp. That's about 200 pounds less than a 3.0 and 920 hp more. What's even more interesting is the engine is smaller than the 911. It looked to be the length and width of a 1.6 or maybe 2.0 OHC four, though not as tall.

Of course where did my deviant mind wander to but the rear compartment of my 911. So the question is: could an engine like this be made to work in a car like the 911? I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin transmission-wise, but at 250 pounds, that's darn lighter than anything a 911 has ever seen.

[Superman]

You, my friend, are a crazy man. Keep that up.

Was this a turbine engine? Turbine engines operate at wildly high RPMs. RPM is a major component in the calculation of horsepower. If an engine made a maximum of 200 lb-ft of torque, but was able to make it at 20,000 rpm, horsepower would be a very impressive number. Even though it would be making about the same power as my 3-liter.

Further, aviation engines are generally set up to operate at one specific rpm, or at least in a narrow range. That would make them potentially troublesome in a passenger automobile.

Just a few thoughts.

[Paulporsche]

The Tucker automobile was designed to be powered by a helicopter engine made by a firm in Syracuse, NY, and rear mounted. And in 1948!

Of course...look what happened to them!

[dd74]

Ah, Jim: this is why we should never drink together. Ideas come of beers, shots, martinis, cigars. Now you've given me another idea...

Turbines.

Chrysler briefly made a turbine car. It's on display at the Peterson Museum. Crazy fast for a 4,000-pound sedan. But I have heard the reliability was notorious. Hmmm...someone out there has to know how to fix a turbine engine.

[Randy Webb]

Car engines need a lot of flexibility - aircraft engines tend to operate at more fixed speeds and can be tuned for that.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Paulporsche
The Tucker automobile was designed to be powered by a helicopter engine made by a firm in Syracuse, NY, and rear mounted. And in 1948!

Of course...look what happened to them!

Okay, that's something. But weren't helicopter engines in 1948 much different than the ones today. Sort of like propeller engines compared to jets?

So if Tucker were around today, do you think he'd go for one of these tiny amped-up helicopter engines in one of his cars?

[81 930]

Have you seen what happens when you put a 1500 HP hydrogen-peroxide turbine engine in a go-kart? The thing blows up and everybody dies.

http://www.meditech.ch/exoticthermoengineering/ete05.html

I love it.

[dd74]

Originally posted by Randy Webb
Car engines need a lot of flexibility - aircraft engines tend to operate at more fixed speeds and can be tuned for that.

Okay - this is good. One aircraft engine that I think would need flexibility is a crop duster's engine. It needs to climb, descent, climb again, etc.

I would imagine if one wanted a car engine with less flexibility, the easiest way would be to...I imagine...put in real flat and docile camshafts. Maybe?

So conversely, if one wanted a flexible turbine - assuming the engine I saw on the Midway was a turbine - what can make it more flexible like a car engine?

Gears come to mind - a transmission.

Or, something akin to a peakier camshaft.

Alright: I'll look up what exactly a turbine engine is and how it works later tonight. I'm really curious about this.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by 81 930
Have you seen what happens when you put a 1500 HP hydrogen-peroxide turbine engine in a go-kart? The thing blows up and everybody dies.

http://www.meditech.ch/exoticthermoengineering/ete05.html

I love it.

According to my math, the kart is supposed to go 240 MPH. With that much HP, the tires wouldn't last long enough to reach that speed even if you could find someone to drive it. What a crock.

I'm sure there have been some F1 motors that would fit in a 911 nicely. There's 900 HP in a piston engine. Enough for you, Dave?

[CliffBrown]

Look for an Allison 250 C-20. Helicopters use transmissions but only to step-down the RPM not shift gears. Several innovators are now using ex-military surplus Lycoming tubo-shaft engines in marine applications using a water-pump propulsion system using no gear changes. Perhaps an allison transmission could be adapted for the task but then you're looking at a weigh and space problem.

[island911]

Originally posted by dd74
Ah, Jim: this is why we should never drink together. Ideas come of beers, shots, martinis, cigars. Now you've given me another idea...

Turbines.

Chrysler briefly made a turbine car. It's on display at the Peterson Museum. Crazy fast for a 4,000-pound sedan. But I have heard the reliability was notorious. Hmmm...someone out there has to know how to fix a turbine engine.

The problem isn't so much reliability .. but rather HEAT.

Chrysler ran that car on public roads once. . .had a police escort. . not because it was such a big 'rocket-science' deal, but because they didn't ever want to come to a stop!
If they did stop, the heat coming off the car would be very obvious, as the air optically distorts. ~~~~~

So if you and Jim drink together, give me a call . . . for that reallity check.

[dd74]

Originally posted by island911
The problem isn't so much reliability .. but rather HEAT.

So if you and Jim drink together, give me a call . . . for that reallity check.

LOL! Okay. Sounds good.

My mind's still a-whirling...

[sagacis]

The M1 Abrams tank uses a turbine engine. So does Jay Leno's Y2K motorcycle.

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/2001/8/recycled_jet_setter/

There are lots of ways it can be done, but the biggest problem is handling the fuel. You will also need a continuously variable transmission with a serious step-down to get decent power.

You would also want a clean air scoop. Maybe a top intake, or both sides?

Hmm..... That would rock!

[Early_S_Man]

Aren't you guys forgetting about the STP Turbine that almost won Indy in '67 ... completed 497.5 miles before a $7 bearing failed??? It used a helicopter engine of the day ... rated around 800 shp, IIRC.

Actually, Chrysler put a small fleet of the '63 Chrysler Turbine test cars in the hands of the public for testing from 1964 thru 1966. My dad and I met one of the test subject drivers in 1966! The biggest problem was fuel economy and cost, not flexibility!!!

[dd74]

Originally posted by Early_S_Man
Aren't you guys forgetting about the STP Turbine that almost won Indy in '67 ... completed 497.5 miles before a $7 bearing failed??? It used a helicopter engine of the day ... rated around 800 shp, IIRC.

Actually, Chrysler put a small fleet of the '63 Chrysler Turbine test cars in the hands of the public for testing from 1964 thru 1966. My dad and I met one of the test subject drivers in 1966! The biggest problem was fuel economy and cost, not flexibility!!!

What fuel would a turbine use, Warren?

[slater]

5000 N.m torque? Does that come out to 3687 foot-pounds? I must be wrong

[island911]

Originally posted by sagacis
The M1 Abrams tank uses a turbine engine. So does Jay Leno's Y2K motorcycle.

http://popularmechanics.com/automotive/sub_coll_leno/2001/8/recycled_jet_setter/ . . .

Nice article, sagacis.

" If curious guys get too close, their bumper can shrivel up like a roasted marshmallow. Jeez, what a kick. There's an 8.5-gal. tank. That's enormous for a motorcycle, but the mileage is only 4 to 6 mpg, so your range is maybe 50 miles, worse than a Harley with a peanut tank." (note: that's running diesel)

[Early_S_Man]

JP-2 .. JP-4 was probably optimal, but kerosene, diesel, fuel oil, gasoline, moonshine, methanol, acetone, toluene ... would all work in a pinch! Chrysler made a big deal about saying it would run on almost anything combustible, including ... perfume!

The STP and Lotus turbines ran on methanol at Indy, just as the rest of the cars ... after gasoline was abandoned as the result of the horrific, deadly fires of 1964.

[dd74]

Well, at least now I have a use for all my old bottles of Canoe and Hi-Karate...

Alright: on to more research...