I, too, have seen the light. (Do I need this particular 911?)
 

I have come to a realization and a crossroads.

Realization: I will not drive the 911S much, ever. It's a toy, it'a a party. I will only go on canyon runs and DE's, etc. I will never travel in the car, I will never drive it on a weekday in the horrible SoCal traffic. The car will see maybe 2000 miles a year. This I know for sure. I might as well have a race car that is street legal.

Now for the crossroads. I have been very busy with life and the car has sat since a run to Mt. Baldy. I haven't started it once since. What was that, a month ago? I have a lot of parts that need to be put on the car. Make that, I want to put these parts on the car. Maybe it doesn't need them. But I've been thinking about this particular car.

Stick with me here.

I'm leaning towards RS flares and some 8" Fuchs on the rear complimenting 7's on the front. Some say don't go cutting on an S. Leave it alone.

Well, the car is very original with some date matching deep sixes and sport seats. Motor and trans numbers match, they are original. It 's a genuine S to the bone and I have the original tire on the spare wheel and the orginal owner's manual. In fact, the only original parts I don't have are the radio and the tool kit.

Keep sticking with me, I'm setting the stage for my question.

The members here have watched me as I've gone thru and starightend the body removing any bondo that was there. The car had been repainted a diiferent color after a non chasis threatening hit to the right quarter. The oil tank is till dented, so I know exactly how far the car was bent. Not much. I have stripped the car to bare metal and it sits in prime, ready for paint.

The car was rusty and that's almost all taken care of. New inner longs will be the end of the body and structural work. All systems have been gone thru, everything works. Stock 2.2 MFI motor that doesn't have the chain tensioner upgrade. More or less and unmolested car. More or less, it will never be concours unless someone is a fool.

So, a quick review. I want a fast toy. I have an original S. Make it a fast toy with flares and all the suspension, brake goodies and eventually a 2.4 RS spec motor, or sell it and go to town on a T.

If you say, "Sell it," then how much? I'll need enough to do a number on a T or I might as well get out the body saw and start with those flares.

Are you saying you want a dedicated track car? Or a dedicated fun car? Why not do all the suspension stuff on the S ( & eventually the RS spec engine) but stick with stock flares? i.e. only change out stuff that’s fairly easily reversible? You could even jam some 951 8x16’s under the rear & get the same tire footprint that you would with the RS flares w/ 8x15’s.

Seems like if you were to sell the S project right now (in bits) you wouldn’t get enough for it to be worthwhile. If you’ve done all the work yourself so far at least you know it’s been done right. (I like sleeper cars)

I think you'd need to finish the restoration to make the selling price decent. Seems like the nice ones bring top dollar, but unfinished ones are in the low teens. So you could finish the work, sell it, then buy/build another one, or just make the one you've got the way you want.

A 2.2MFI non-sunroof coupe would be the one thing I'd consider switching my car for. Seems like that would be a nice platform for some mods (suspension, rollbar, etc). As for flares, sure, why not?

Good points, ubi. But I want to stick with 15 inch wheels. What I do to any car from now on will all be retro style mods. The more R, ST and RS correct, the more I like it. As far as dedicated track or dedicated fun, I don't know if I want to accept those terms. I would simply say, "highly specialized." I don't want a Jack Olsen car, but that's highly specialized. It fits his needs and desires very well. I would like to accomodate my desires and needs.

Sleeper. No, I prefer hanging the stuff on the car in plain sight, i.e. dual out street exhaust with megaphones. Roll bar and harness. Cut off switch. DOT racing tires. I'm not hiding anything. Might even run around with a number on the door. Maybe not.

As for flares, sure why not? Wouldn't that make the car less valuable?

Finish it.

Sell it.

Buy an SC.

Molest.

Smile.

The flares would definitely hurt the "original" value. If you're going for an "R" thang, then you don't need to flare, right? If you want to keep deep 6s and just setup the safety/suspension thing and drive the piss out of it, I think you're good to go. In some sense while you have an original car, it isn't a pristine original car. It just depends on if you don't mind driving a "matching numbers" car.

Get a T and work on it but keep what you have for a while. It would be a shame to sell it and then have regrets. 1 month is not a good test. don't burn any bridges....

Keep it and do the mods,
I like Chuck Millers S, now with 2.7 :p

Why not stuff 8's under the rear of that narrow body? We can get minilites in custom offsets and diameters.

The '69 that I'm trading Scruffy for is narrow body, and I plan to keep it that way for as long as possible. So I plan on the minilites in 7's and 8's, or Fuch's in 7's and 944Turbo 8's. They'll fit under a narrow body car if you run 2.5-3.0 degrees negative camber, and that's what I want to run anyway.

There is an aero advantage to staying unflared. I think it would be cool to build a replica of the early non-flared ST's.

Great comments so far. I could be swayed back from the flares, but as mentioned, Chuck's car is da bomb.

Randy, my next car will be 356 and it will sit next to the/a 911 and Boxster. I'm not gonna harbor two 911s.

Tyson, we need to talk.

I would say cash in on the value of the S and apply it to a 911T. In terms of price well I haven't followed the market that close perhaps upper teens to the right buyer, they must be out there if the excellent cars are going for in the 30Ks. Heck the seats are worth 4K alone right?

With a 911T or 911E (coupe I suppose) you could start with a clean slate. If you modify the S you're going to need new parts and will pitch/sell/store the old stuff anyway right? So the cost of the platform to start with "costs" more using the S, right?

To me 911S prices don't make much sense. OK sure they have the bigger motor and some other bits and they are rare, etc. But would a 911T the same parts be less attractive or offer less performance?

In terms of the car you would like to build, can provide some more detail about what you like in order to figure the costs. 901 or 915 transmission? Racing type interior? Engine? Suspension? Oil cooling, perfect paint? etc. etc. Excellence had an interesting article about a modified 69E coupe this month. It's pretty cool...but the through the hood gas tank filler seemed to be a lot of effort and expense to me though. I did like the motor....280 HP or something...and the original stock 901 transmission to boot.

Speaking of Excellence, a couple of years ago there was an article about two modified red early 911 coupes. Those cars looked like a lot of fun...you might get some ideas from that article. I have in one of piles on my desk if you can't find it.

If I had to do it again (motor swap) I would spend more time planning. For instance on hindsight I should have bought a 70+ car to make the wiring easier or better yet a 72+ car to get the 915 transmission. And if I went with anything but a 911E it would have come with 15" wheels instead of 14" wheels.

The other thing about looking for another car is that there could be a project car out there that is 1/2 way to where you want to be...just as I think there is someone out there that is looking for a 911S restoration in process. With a less expensive project car you could spend more on the motor. I'm sure driving a car before and after suspension mods is great. But to me getting into the same car after adding much HP and torque is even better. My point is that to get that ultimate 911 you need a motor to go along with it so budget accordingly. If only it were a simple as a crate motor from JEGs.

One other comment....I like the flares. My SC had flares and I miss them.

Guess I like big bottom girls.

Nice perspective, Chuck. To answer your question about details (and to supply the info for the thread), I would like a finished interior. Sport seats are comfortable for me, but I would like to try some Scheel (sp?) replicas. The only drawback is the lack of harness lap belt slots. I would like to build my own from a shell. But, just a finished car with decent paint and basic RS type stuff on the inside.

I would like to have a really clean trick motor and I have a propensity for detailing the underside. My 914 race car was all painted in the wheel wells, etc. in a contrasting color. I like the bottoms of cars sometimes more than the top. But, the top side has to be an eyecatcher as well.

There are many cars I am envious of and many more that I'm not. I guess it's a personal thing because, you see, I'm not envious of Jacks's car and most here drool over it. I like Jack's car a lot, make no mistake, but there should be only one BBII. So, I need my own variation. I want to be envoious of my own car.

I'm not gonna build an original car. That's the point here. I am going to do irreversable things. That's what I've decided and that's the dilemma. Once I start, there's no going back.

milt - i like your ideas for your finished car. it doesn't sound like your S is the one to start with unless your mods are reversable. i am not the one to praise "keep it original" which is obvious based on my car. however my car was far from original when i bought it. keep us posted. curious as to where your thoughts will be based on feedback.

Sounds like a great car that you have done a lot of work on already. I wouldnt want to start over. Keep it. Its always going to be an S.

I vote 'no flares', but if you want them, what the hell, go for it. You can run 16x8s with a custom offset on the back of a narrow arse car a little easier than the 951 8s

OK, I'm gonna say one more thing and butt out for a while. Regarding Sherman's post, I have done a lot of work and if someone wanted to return the car to its original color, right now would be the time. I don't and won't. This is the crossroads.

You all understand why I'm asking these things right at this juncture? Keep it coming, like Bob T. says, my thinking will be affected by the wisdom of the club.

You know what guys? I'm 59 years old. I'm not gonna do this too many more times. The future 356 stands to be my last harrah. I might do a concours weenie thing there if I'm capable. Whatever, it will represent everthing I've learned over the 40 years I've worked on cars.

As far as this, or another 911 is concerned, I expect to be out on the track well into my sixties driving as hard as I know how and drive the same car home. That's what the 911 will be for. Right now, John Dilger, Jack, Tyson, and Magnus are my heros. No freakin' trailers. (I know I missed a few, sorry)

http://www.powersportsphotography.co...fs9878_std.jpg

Milt,
I understand your situation.

Selling your S with a good ROI should yield enough $$ to purchase a fairly complete RS-type ride in very good condition with desireable equipment already hung on it.

Sherwood

To finish your "S" will most likely require a time and money investment you won't get back. Sell the S, and either purchase a well built 2.7RS caliber motor, or start building one yourself. Then, while you're building the motor, keep an eye out for the car you're going to put it in. If it's a T, then fine. Pull the T motor, put in yours, and sell off the parts. But a T motor won't give you what you're looking for. It's a blast to drive, no doubt, but it doesn't have the "goods" to back up your RS-flared 911 you're talking about.

It sounds like you're not one of those who wants to talk about how they have a rare 911S, so just sell it, and get started on what you think will be more fun.

In your shoes, Milt, I would cut up the S and make the car you want. You already own it. And you already know it, inside and out. To finish it all to collector standards is going to be a lot of work and time (which could be spent racing), and if you sell it as a project, you'll likely not recoup your investment. (Although I could be wrong about that, since I don't know what you've got in it, in terms of time and money).

But then, I have none of the 'collector' bug in me. Collectors end up living like caretakers with their possessions, saving them for future generations to enjoy. That's admirable, and all... but -- for me -- a 911 is a means to an end. It gets me to the track; it gets me around the track; it sometimes puts me on a podium. It lets me show off what a great car they made in 1972 (and, in BB2's case, 1993 and 2003). It lets me show off (well, a little) the modest progress I've made learning to drive a car at speed.

When I don't want to drive it anymore, someone else can worry about it. I'll be blind or dead.

There are already plenty of these cars being pampered in garages. I'd like to see more of them out winning races.

I dunno man, It sure has been nice watching your progress. The work you've done has been a joy to see from step to step. Maybe another long beach get together is in order?

...But if 'S's are so important then sell it and get what you want going. I know it's been rough, I got rid of my 914 for similar reasons.

Tired of working on it knowing it would never and that I could never make it a 914-6. Got an SC to fill the void and it's been just fine since.

I'll counter Jack - I've got the collector bug and if people keep hacking up the early cars, soon there'll be no way for the average guy to get one and relive the original early car experience. I don't mind mods, but I prefer them period-correct performance mods - I'd make a better vintage/historic racer than I would track rat. :)

Ideally, I'd suggest getting a '74 coupe, back-date the exterior, drop in a 3.0 or 3.2 and head to the track happy as you want to be. If that's not an option, I'd go for getting a 911T and modding it as you like.

For the record, I'm against altering any of the SWB cars - these icons of Porsche history, the cars that started the legend, seem to be butchered into turbo-looks and 993 replicas more than any other longhoods; bugs the hell out of me.

Just my two cents,

Emanuel

wow - both jack and emanual are very persuasive from their opposite view points. read both replies twice and then re-read your posts to better understand your perspective and this is your statement that sticks with me:

"You know what guys? I'm 59 years old. I'm not gonna do this too many more times. The future 356 stands to be my last harrah. I might do a concours weenie thing there if I'm capable. Whatever, it will represent everthing I've learned over the 40 years I've worked on cars."

sounds like your car is already built in your head. you have the base. man...i am gonna say build it. the collectors will be happy their car will go up in value. you will be happy that you have the car you want. save the concours energy for the 356. keep us posted over the next 40 years on your projects.

Everything you've done so far is reversible, right? (mods I mean). If you find the right buyer you might get mid-high teens out of it. Maybe more...who knows in this market. It is numbers matching with some cool perks, but it is primer, so...

I think it comes down to the engine. If you want a 2.2MFI sitting behind you, then keep this car and finish it off. Skip the flares, dial it in for the wheels you want (for track, keep the deep 6s as a second set) and drive the snot out of it. That way you haven't done any cutting mods, and you are still number matching, etc.

BUT, if you don't want a 2.2MFI, then you should sell it and find something else. Becuase if you pull the engine to swap something bigger, you no longer have a numbers matching car.

Milt,

Can you keep this car....and keep working on it...AND buy into a
another project?

Hate to see you sell the "one you know", particularly since you are a lot closer to finishing the S than you have been.

I've been lucky enough to have several cars at one time, and I like that situation.

The other option, would be to do everything you can do (and undo) to the S, including bigger engine (pickle your current one), go to R wheels (or widened 6's), etc. As noted....you are a fair way along already.....

Regards,
Eric

Well, I can't give any numbers, but I don't think you should cut this one up. It sounds like you have brought it to a point where it would make someone looking for a nice original daily-driver type car very happy. And who knows, 10 or 15 years down the road it probably will be worthy of a concours-level restoration. Like was mentioned already, they aren't exactly making more '71 S coupes these days.

How much is left to be done before you could sell it in 'drive-me-home' condition? I think it should fetch a pretty decent price considering all the goodies you've got on it. Should be more than enough to get something more to your liking, most probably with some of the good bits already on there.

And part of me is a little sad at the thought of another nice original well maintained early car going under the knife.

Just my opinion though...

Dan :)

If you have to finish the S in order to get a decent price, then find an affordable T, then strip and re-do the T to the same standard you're doing the S to, plus do all the motor and body and suspension mods, how long will it take? You're already so busy that it's hard to get time for the S, you say. So will it be 2 years? 3 years? more? before you have your T toy done?

Life is finite, and we don't know how much until later. We've all heard of, or known, people who got tossed a curve ball when they didn't expect it.

I say you put yourself first. Take that S that you've sweated over, make it what you want, and go enjoy it rather than spend the next X years in the garage.

It's a 911S, not a commonplace car but not a rare, unique historical treasure either. (Now, if you were going to cut up an original RS, that would be a different story.) Anyway, you can keep all the original bits (motor, bodywork, etc) and if S'es become like hen's teeth someday, a good restorer can turn it back. I mean, its already had lots of work done, it's not an untouched, original paint, time capsule sort of car.

Just my two cents.

now there's an idea. Buy an RS and put some narrow fender flares on it. ;)

I had to come back for that. Funny as hell.

Seems like everything hinges on one thing, flares. If I don't do the flares, then all's fair, I guess, because it's reversable. Like he says, "....., you can keep all the original bits (motor, bodywork, etc) and if S'es become like hen's teeth someday, a good restorer can turn it back. I mean, its already had lots of work done, it's not an untouched, original paint, time capsule sort of car."

On this: "How much is left to be done before you could sell it in 'drive-me-home' condition? I think it should fetch a pretty decent price considering all the goodies you've got on it. Should be more than enough to get something more to your liking, most probably with some of the good bits already on there." Let's go back. The goodies are not on there yet. It is a drivable, reliable car. Brakes are stock and fresh. Everything works. It's about to come apart in the areas that haven't been massaged, namely the undercar parts. When I put the new parts on, it won't be a '71 S under there anymore. And that leads to more mods, we all know that. Othere than brakes, I have concentrated on body and structural work since aquiring the car.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'll conclude this thread in a day or so with the "final answer."

as long as it isn't the "final solution"

Here's a tiny observation:

You said: you want to "stay with 15s"
You said: DOT 'R' tires

this means 225 rears unless you want to drive hoosiers all the time.

225s + custom offset 15s + narrow body = no problem.

However the roll bar etc everything you want to do isn't going to make it easy to revert back to perfecto-stock. Will you be dead before you care? This may have nothing to do with your age, if you build the car you want, don't feel guilty about whether you cut up x or y. porsche re-used race cars with important records and converted them into different configurations or models. These were far more unique than an 'S'. If your 'S' was finished and saleable for a high price, I would say go for it and start fresh with a 'T'. However, it may not bring a high price unfinished and I'm not sure if you will want to finish a car for someone else.

I would make it into what you want it to be. It's not perfect, never going to be a concours car. Is Jack's car worth less now that he's modified it? I wouldn't say so.

Do with the thing what makes you happy, you've already invested your time and money into this car, so finish what you've started.

I hope to help here...
 

Milt, keep your 911S project. I think it looks pretty cool as it is...that's me tho.

Find a nice low miles 911T. Then, throw just enough cash at it to make a reliable daily driver, then...this is the hard part, drive it daily! This is what I do.

The S will be there when you feel the need to work on something. I have an empty engine stand with ideas hanging all over it. I am driving my 911T to Northern California all next week, then to Ventura in Sept, then to the East Coast later the same month. The "hot engine" ideas are at home waiting for me as I drive around and enjoy the lowely, nonflared, 911T!

Hope that helps. Shawn.

To extend that:

Is it worth what he has in it? No.
Is he happy? Yes.

this is the way these things go...

For the record, one minor observation:

Flares are reversible, too. :)

It takes about as much paint and bodywork to remove them as it does to add them. I guess there'd be some scar from the welding under there, but that really would only matter if it were a Concours queen, and since the original paint is already gone, it's safe to say that that's not (thankfully) its destiny.

I agree with Masraun. Listen to the little voice in your head.

Your car is a known quantity and you've already put a lot of work into it. Starting on a new car will only add cost and take longer to get on the road. You have you dream car sorted in your head - go for it!

You're probably right about the timeline, but I'm not sure if starting with a new car would add to the cost. You could start with a 911T roller for like $3K or $4K right? The other parts (motor, trans, suspension, brakes, interior) would cost the same regardless of which car you bolt them on, right? But time is a concern...took me close to two year to get my swap done between the rebuild and sorting everything out.

Thats what Im screamin' :)

When you can swing a hammer and dolly the way Milt can, flares are definitely reversible.

Way back when I cut up my fairly new '72 S to put the flares on. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

You mean you're going to ruin that perfectly good paint job??? I love the look of the car now.

As others have mentioned, there is a way to fit 8's. Minilites for sure, but custom built Fuchs, too.

Save the flares for the end, the very end. You can go pretty crazy w/ the engine and suspension etc. until then. It's an S. So what? It's your S, and you know it inside out. There will be NO surprises for you anywhere on this car. That is a very good thing. Why start over?

And if some will turn pale and faint at the sight of your (gasp) modified/'ruined' S, you can turn to them and in a Tony Montana accent claim: "I don't care, an S to me is the same as a T. Just a fooking machine man."