The truth is, you're getting kind of fat...

[Jack Olsen]

New Porsches keep getting faster. But there are compromises that come with progress. New Porsches also keep getting bigger and heavier.

Awhile back, I posted a video where I compared a lap around Willow Springs between my modified 1972 911 and a 991 GT3 to show that Porsche's latests 'race car for the street' was still slower around this particular track than my 43-year-old street-driven 911. The new Porsche has 200 hp more than my car, and in this particular data sample had better tires and a much better driver at the wheel.

Now, the comparison is very particular. Willow Springs happens to rely on sustained high speeds more than most, it has no 5th-to-2nd gear corners, and its long sweepers give a real advantage to a lower-weight car. There are many tracks where the GT3 would be faster than my car, no doubt. After all, it has much more power, a more sophisticated suspension, all sorts of technological game-changing ideas -- like all-wheel steering and the PDK transmission -- and 43 years of hard work from the engineers in Weissach.

But it's also significantly bigger and heavier than my car -- somewhere in the neighborhood of 700 pounds.

Now, my gut tells me that the reason for this has more to do with the marketing people at Porsche than the engineers. The marketing guys have to come up with a car that people who can afford a new Porsche will choose over other luxury performance cars. The number of new 911 buyers who track their car is probably very low. My guess would be it's less than 1%. I hate to think it, but I would guess that even the percentage of new GT3 owners who will actually make regular trips to the track is not far off of that 1% figure.

So what do the other 99% of Porsche buyers look for in a new 911? I suspect it has a lot to do with a car's 'cool factor,' with its function as a status object -- something that will make the other stock-brokers/lawyers/plastic-surgeons in the building's parking structure feel a little envy. I don't want to knock those particular professions, of course. And I honestly don't know the demographic profile of new Porsche buyers; I'm making a guess. And based on that guess, I assume they don't want to get into a car that looks tiny compared to the guy in the Ferrari or Aston Martin or Maserati. Luxury cars tend to be on the big side, relative to the amount of passengers or cargo they're designed to hold. Cars that are fast around a track tend to be on the small side. Mass offers no benefit, relatively speaking. But that's only when you're talking about going through a corner.

But am I wrong? Is there another compelling reason why a no-options 991 GT3 weighs 3,164 pounds?

I know it's a popular idea that the underlying reason is safety legislation. That there are complicated rules about impact protection and such that give Porsche no choice but to make the cars bigger every year. And as they get bigger, the weight follows.

I don't know the particulars of any legislation, but I think this is an easy idea to get behind for people who want to believe in the company and the progress of each new 911 iteration. It's hard to resist the PR wave that comes with the release of each new 911. The engineers ARE working hard. There are all sorts of cutting-edge technological improvements. The new model is inevitably something that's better, faster, stronger.

And bigger.

I'm a huge fan of Porsche. I would have a GT3 in my garage tomorrow if I could afford it (and could find a place to park it). But I suspect that the marketing of a car that's as expensive as a new 911 (or GT3) mandates a lot of decisions that the engineers would not necessarily vote for. Maybe I'm wrong. That's why I'm posting. Maybe it is the safety stuff.

Out of curiosity, I did some Googling, and came up with 13 modern cars that weigh less than my old 911 -- which means they all weigh at least 700 pounds less than the new GT3. Some of the cars on the list are sports cars and some aren't. I'm sure none of them would be as quick around Willow Springs as the 991 GT3. But the thing I see on the list is this: a lot of small, light cars. Modern cars that tip the scales at ~2400 pounds... or less. Some are a lot less.

All of them pass federal safety standards, as far as I can tell. Some of the performance cars are significantly smaller than my old 911, which itself is already pretty small -- a full 13" shorter than the new 991. So... they're light. And they're small. And they're legal.

The bottom line? It seems like Porsche could make a 2400 pound 911 again.

And if they can't, I'm hoping to find out why from whatever all of you have to tell me.

Here's the list, in no particular order:

Fiat 500 2,363 pounds
(2016) Mazda Miata 2,318 pounds
Mercedes Smart for Two 2,094 pounds
Lotus Elise 1,664 pounds
Alfa Romeo 4C 2,485 pounds
Mitsubishi Mirage 2,029 pounds
Scion iQ 2,127 pounds
Toyota Yaris 2,315 pounds
Mazda Two 2,306 Pounds
Chevrolet Spark 2,269 pounds
Nissan Versa 2,354 pounds
Hyundai Accent 2,396 pounds
Kia Rio 2,410 pounds

[Craig_D]

I've wondered the same thing about weight and safety. Is it that side curtain airbags, driver/passenger bags, side door bars, reinforced A/B/C pillars, crumple zones accompanying reinforced passenger zones are making these cars THAT much bulkier? Is it that Porsche wants to have safety standards that are truly protective at Autobahn speeds, or speeds that a Nissan Versa could never attain unless dropped out of an airplane?

The latest Ferrari 458 weighs 3,075 pounds and is also made up of extremely light weight materials.

I often laugh when watching YouTube videos from the factories showing magnesium roofs, carbon chassis, carbon ceramic brakes and then a >3,000 lb curb weight!? What aren't they mentioning...lead floor panels?

[G60SuperCharger]

You know the geniuses at Weissach could do it if the marketers/bean counters thought it would be highly profitable and gave them the green light.

If they are worried about poaching sales from the current bloated "911", I've got a great name for Porsche to bring back for this 2400lb 'er.

Work out a deal with Peugeot and call it the 901.

[adias]

Cars are bigger, heavier, due to forced safety systems and other government forced design. For the average driver and open road use, modern cars are safer and faster within a higher safety envelope, just less fun at sane speeds.

The 911 DNA is still present, up to a point, up until the 997.2. The 991 has a 4" longer wheelbase and that makes the car far more 'balanced' virtually eliminating the 911 pendulum dynamics signature. The 991 no longer feels like a 911. It still is a great performer, just with different dynamics. The new customer who has no clue, or enjoys, pendulum dynamics, loves the new car. So all is good.

[twistoffat]

Well the PDK gear box weighs nearly 80lbs more than the 7 speed manual. I think the new generation GT3 is something like 35lbs lighter but factor in the PDK and that could have been 115 lbs lighter. If you look at the new MX5 its lighter. Mazda are doing something right. I also read recently that the new 991 has been designed with future technology in mind. Space has been apparently created to make room for hybrid technology in future cars.

[douglas bray]

How much weight can be stripped from a modern 911 and it still pass federal safety standards? What percentage of total starting weight is it?

I've stripped hundreds of pounds from my car and can say it is likely still just as safe as it was on day one....maybe even safer. Did I strip out 10% or 15% or is the number approaching 20%?

Could Porsche successfully sell a modern 911 with the same percentage of creature comforts and styling stripped out of it, call it a Clubsport, charge more for it, and address Jack's dilemma? Make a car that while it may be bigger and safer...is also lighter and therefor able to keep up with Jack around Willow??? Would people buy it?

Some would....

[DanielDudley]

Don't they have racing classes now where the cars have to have AC, and it has to run during the race ?

[douglas bray]

^^^Now that's just crazy talk.

[Bill Douglas]

Just fat across the ass.

[tips]

Lets not forget Porsche generally and the GT variants specially are actually among the lightest sports cars on the market. At an average 2850 pounds Only the Speciale and the 650s come close weight wise and those 2 cost a lot more, almost double.

Im sure they could make them lighter if they really wanted but that would take them out of their target price range. They've only recently switched from steel to aluminum with the 991. Not possible to switch to an all carbon tub for a car as mass produced as the 911.

The 2010 Cup car weighed 2650 pounds while the same generation RS only wighted 220 pounds more. That's impressive if you ask me. The current Cup weighs a little less even though its bigger. My biggest disappointment was the weight on the 918. Its one hell of a car but the weight is a bit BMW.

Im not sure where im going with this

A perfect example of marketing shoving stuff up the engineers throats are the current 21" wheels on the latest RS. I don't want to guess what a new set of MC would cost in those sizes.

About the GT3 customer. Speaking from local experience, almost 80% of the older gt3 owners were track comers. Some more than others. However with the current 991 gt3 that has significantly changed. It probably at 50% or less now. PDK made the gt3 an easy attractive option. I see a lot of them mostly on the streets.

[tips]

Originally Posted by DanielDudley

Don't they have racing classes now where the cars have to have AC, and it has to run during the race ?

Yes, Porsche has an AC in its current race cars that only works when cabin temperatures become unsafe for the driver.

During the Lamborghini Superlaggera middle east series 4 years ago. The series leader recorded a temperature of 167 degrees inside the cabin. He passed out after the race and had to be carried on a stretcher.

[Gman993]

Gee the Lotus is so light and small. Every time I drive my good friends Lotus Exige supercharged I can't wipe the grin off my face. It is just so much fun, so nimble and very quick everywhere. I'm a big fan of light, simple and compact

[DanielDudley]

I had one fairly light 911 that handled distinctly better with a passenger aboard. I had one fairly fat 928 that would drift like a ballerina, and was just a dream to drive on the track.

I currently have a supercharged Miata that has too much power for the current suspension set up at only 170 HP, so it isn't all about weight.

[MrBonus]

Steel reinforced beams in doors and bumpers add an astronomical amount of weight. The Lotus, I believe, had an exemption from a number of Federal safety standards that recently expired along with its U.S. sales.

[Steam Driver]

I agree with Jack on all points; the new cars are 'way too fat and for all the reasons he mentions. Personally I think the culprits are the marketing gurus and the "requirements" of the demographics they're having to shoot for.

This group hasn't the foggiest idea of what a sports car (at least in the old idiom) is (or should be) and instead are looking for a status symbol for profiling; actual performance and/or high-performance driving has little or nothing to do with their choice of a 911. Their criteria are a) it's expensive and I can afford it (or want to look like I can), and b) it has a name and looks cool.

I always pay attention to who is driving a late-model 911. Generally a grey-haired male and/or a thirtyish blonde trophy. Rather stereotypical but true nonetheless. A corollary are Harley riders. Almost always a guy with a grey beard.

[McLaren-TAG]

I think you guys are also overlooking an obvious culprit. Size adds weight. Cars have grown and with it, the numbers on the scale. It's no coincidence every car Jack shared the weight of is tiny by today's standards.

[proffighter]

Guess beside the technical reasons it's just because everyone likes to be king of the road, means bigger is better. Look at all the Audi and BMW SUV picking up their little kids at school...

[MJHanna]

On your list you have the Fiat 500. When you look at the ABARTH version 160/170 hp from the factory and the weight you are in the same category as an early 911S. I got one for my daily driver and it’s a giggle to drive. If I jump into one of the later 911’s they don’t engage me to the same degree. Part of it is I get to work with the Abarth to get the most out of it, vs. having gobs of power that is just a push of the pedal away. I love 911’s always will, but for grins per mile the Abrath also delivers. It’s not built like a Porsche and I understand that so there is a down side to your list regarding the build quality.

[oh snap]

I personally am impressed that Porsche has managed to keep the weight of the 991 to where it is.

An e28 M5 weighed 3200 lbs while the F10 M5 is somewhere around 4300lbs. Yeah its a sedan, but it weights as much as an SUV. That bothers me more than a 911 that weighs 300lbs more than it did in the 80s.

Also keep in mind most of the cars you listed are built like tin cans. Most of them arent sports cars let alone sports cars that have 475hp, beefy adjustable suspension, big brakes etc. and heaven forbid a few ammenities as well.

It may be true hat the marketers have more pull than the engineers but the engineers are still doing great work.

[oh snap]

to put it further into perspective a google search shows that a 991 cup car weighs about 2590lbs.