79 SC dyno results! new injectors vs. old injectors

[rdane]

No, honest, I added new CIS injectors and as you can see I have a 34.6 increase in HP and a 43.1# increase in torque.



LMAO...at least that is what some would have you think.

Lower numbers are a base line, done to establish where I started...not same day, but on the same machine. I make no claims past it is my car.

I also changed another $13K worth of parts and labor to get the higher numbers so it is really heard to tell what actually cause the increase, the bucket load of money I threw at the engine or the new injectors

I tried to change the chip second time through the dyno but found out I didn't have one.

[Jeff Alton]

What are you trying to say?? You have a lot of money in a 3.4? Good. From what I have heard you have built a great engine, and people, myself included, are quite impressed with the results. Better than I got with my 3.2 with 964 cams and SSI's.But why all the sarcasm?

Jeff

[rdane]

Sorry Jeff, I was just making fun of the chip thread that is running on and on

[Jeff Alton]

Fair enough, I agree that it tends to go on and on and on and on.....well, you know what I mean!!

Cheers, Jeff

[Schrup]

I put a fresh air filter in today & got an extra 15 HP on the butt dyno.

[beepbeep]

Err... I think I see the pattern here. Guys who have sunk loads of money into their CIS motors for small performance increases don't like this "change chip and get more power" trend. I mean, if I threw 13000$ into CIS engine just to get 34 extra HP I would be mad at everyone who claimed that improvements can be made just changing a chip. I would try to ridicule them as much I could beacuse if what they were saying was true, I would have felt stupid for spending that kind of money and recieving relativly minor returns. I would post multiple threads about "great torque improvements", "great reliability and simplicity of CIS" and dyno graphs to convince myself (and others) that my investment was actually sound. I would also ignore the fact that 3.2L Carrera engines are much easier to tune due to absence of CIS-flapper and presence of electronically tunable Motoronic fuel injection tahat allows you fine tuning with substaintially less $$-input.


Oh, by the way: total cost of our project car including tub in perfect condition, coilovers,brand new Garrett GT40 turbo, engine in good shape (that produces more torque in stock form than rdane's 13k$-improved 3.4L), Big Red front+930 rear brakes, custom welded SS headers, 930 gearbox with LSD, fiberglass body parts .etc .etc totals around 13000$

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by rdane

No, honest, I added new CIS injectors and as you can see I have a 34.6 increase in HP and a 43.1# increase in torque.

Maybe if you had a set of custom injectors dialed in to flow a bit less fuel you could have squeezed another 5 or 10hp. Naturally you would have to accept responsibility for other possibilities that may occur as part of the leaning.

Who knows about the big end result? Better you than me.. like don't accelerate in desert heat on a 4% road incline cause EGTs always spike when accelerating. I would suggest installing a decent monitoring system for a few grand in parts before you do this.

ps: this assumes that you keep the CIS. An engine mgt system allows better custom maping.

[Wil Ferch]

rdane:
I recognize the tongue-in-cheek attempt at humor here...but...

...just like the case in the other thread....you can't deny that the combined effect of the all the changes you made actually caused the hp increase you see on the graphs.

...in like vein...there is no denying that the hp claims made are real on the chip thread...for the *combined effect* of chip, premuff and sport exhaust ( or whatever combo used to show the increase)

...I don't think anyone said the hp increase was due to the chip alone. If that's what you think was being said, then I can understand your irritation of how that thread went. If so...agreed....that would require a "controlled test" to only show the affects of the chip.

The thing that bothered me was the implication that the chip was a complete placebo. That...I think is unfair as you take the point in the opposite direction.

---Wil

[rdane]

Thanks Paul, I'll try that air cleaner today

No sense of humor around here?

Goran.. na, never mind Hard for me to relate to a dude that runs a Saab turbo engine in a 911.

[rickeolis]

I wonder how well a fuel injection power flush might have done instead?

[jpachard]

I really enjoy the fact that on the other thread people tend to ignore my posts since they actually contain the side by side info everybody seems to want(stock chip vs. aftermarket chip) :-(...

Oh well...I guess laptimes don't count either, wait, no one else seems to drive on the track!!! Bottom line is the clock doesn't lie.

Cheers, James

[RANDY P]

Originally posted by rdane
Thanks Paul, I'll try that air cleaner today

No sense of humor around here?

Goran.. na, never mind Hard for me to relate to a dude that runs a Saab turbo engine in a 911.

As an interesting data point we adjusted the WUR and CO on my car the other day in the never ending quest for power, and


now it won't start

[rdane]

James, I did ask for a clarification on your last post in the chip thread.

This for Goran,

"The '97 Saab 9-5 Aero turbo is also the fastest standard Saab ever manufactured producing 235hp and a massive torque of 273#"

1997 technology not really made for a 911, but you will have a nice kit car when you are done. Bravo for your efforts. But not something I take seriously in a 911 discussion.

My obvious choice was a "new" 3.356L engine, flat 6, with matching serial numbers to my 1979 coupe with 258hp and 250# of torque.

Randy, WUR, check

[beepbeep]

Well I understand what you are saying and give you compliments on your engine. You do get more power from increasing volume, no doubt.

But that doesn't change the fact that:

1. Increasing power by increasing volume on engine equipped with CIS is very expensive excercise.

2. Cars equipped with (conservativly mapped) electronic fuel injection can and will benefit from optimizing fuel curves to fit higher octane/less margin scenario. And they will do it for relativly little money.

I've seen lot's of chip-bashing on forum, from people who don't own EFI-equipped cars. Now some friendly joking is nice but situation got somewhat heated nowadays (regarding Loren/Steve discussion).

So I personally felt the urge to say: YES IT'S POSSIBLE, you can gain horsepower with a chip. It all depends on how much factory left on the table.

In case of 3.2 N/A Carrera engine, it can't be soo much but I bet it's more than 8HP...and for price asked it's probably a good deal. If engine is turbocharged then you can get some jaw-dropping numbers with just a chip.

So please, see the light and realize that most chips aren't just placebo...there are good and bad ones but it's perfectly possible and it works. When coupled to some other mods (exhaust, better breathing etc.) this sort of tuning will give good power for little cost. It's called progress!

[rdane]

Goran,
All good points. I have never said a remapped chip was a placebo. It is a good place to first look for what the factory left on the table. Just asked for better documentation from Steve, et all, on what their chip was giving for numbers.

That is not unreasonable no matter what I drive...a Nissan pickup today btw.

I am in the process of building a big bore Motronic so I have some interest on what actually has been documented on the performance chips.

But this thread was suppose to be funny.
After all new injectors are only $60 a piece

Where can I get a new chip for my SC?

[Craig 930 RS]

Ha, got ya topped Dane ---

Throw a couple of mega bills (for a Varioram engine & install, plus a trans rebuild plus 2 new ratios) at a (my) 79SC and ya get 330(280.5) and 292 (247)

"If I only had a brain...."
Oh I do now

Craig

[Craig 930 RS]

Dane -

Ya got a PM

Craig

[KobaltBlau]

I know this isn't the intent of this thread, but people might find it in search.

A friend of mine has a '74 911 2.7 (non-S), that he is using as a stock class race car. The motor has not been rebuilt for many years and the car was a street car until a year and a half ago.

He felt that the car was really slow but just attributed it to the low comp. CIS 2.7. He eventually replaced his injectors (I don't remember why) and he got a bunch more power. No dyno, but it was very noticeable in the car.

So it _is_ possible to get power from replacing CIS injectors if your old ones are old/clogged/whatever.

[BGCarrera32]

Originally posted by jpachard
Oh well...I guess laptimes don't count either, wait, no one else seems to drive on the track!!!

Ya hit the nail on the head there...