The Greatest Engineers on Earth

Here's a thread for the holidays.

Porsches are among the best-engineered cars ever produced. To my mind, a Porsche is singular in its ability to function as either a daily street driver or a weekly track racer -- without significant modifications required to focus exclusively on either. The 911, in particular, is a wonder of simplicity, function following form, and inspired, methodical, well thought-out engineering.

Pretty much.

Porsche is also a small manufacturer, with limited resources, who started manufacturing a car back in 1963 that they would never have imagined would be in production through 1998 (and, in a form that still resembles the original, beyond 2003). As such, modifications were made on the fly, often with the costs of re-tooling the factory dictating what could or could not be done, and also with management that on more than one occasion decided that discontinuing the 911 would be a wise strategic move.

So there are some things about this car that are, well, not really at the cutting edge of engineering and design. There are a few things about these great cars that are (how shall I say it?)... downright stupid.

So, in the spirit of healthy self-criticism, I'm going to start a list of the design and engineering aspects ofthe 911 that are part of what makes owning and working on them a bit of a challenge.

Oil Lines on the outside of the body, down where you would ordinarily feel free to position a jack. I know that this has a lot to do with the original 2-liter engine cooling itself adequately with a fan, but of all the places they could have decided to put the most important artery of the car, this seems to have been the worst possible choice. Similarly, an oil cooler under the bumper, right out in front, is also a little peculiar, given the tendency of all nations on the planet to bound their roads with raised, concrete curbs.

No apparent jack stand points -- if you manage to get the car raised up without pinching a $500 piece of pipe, it's often anybody's guess where it's best to place the stands that are going to hold the thing up there. Considering that these cars were made to be worked on by their driver/owners (at least in the early days), you'd think a clearly indicated hoisting point would be in order.

Poor line of sight for speedometer, etc. Sure, I love the big, easy-to-read tach. But what other mass production car requires you to twist the gauges to crazy angles in order to see when you're driving anywhere in the neighborhood of the speed limit?

One idiot light does double duty as the parking brake indicator and oil pressure failure warning. I don't know how many models this is the case in, but jeez... The difference between one of these situations and the other is pretty significant.

Webasto gasoline-fueled heater, right next to the fuel tank. Okay, where do we put the (potential) molotov cocktail we've designed as a supplementary heater? How about next to 15 gallons of explosive fuel, which is up front, at bumper level, where head-on collisions are most likely to happen? I don't know of any problems resulting from this, ever, but it was a gutsy idea for the Weissach engineers to even think up.

Counter-intuitive climate control sliders. No other way to describe them. Top one is for fresh air blown in from under the windshield. Next one is, er... sometimes I can remember, and get it to work. Usually not. But three levers on the dash, and two more down between the seats? That was the plan? Turning on the defrost requires sliding at least four of them.

The 915 transaxle. Nuff said, right? I mean it's not exactly durable, and it's not exactly smooth. Sure, it's an old design, but I've had early-seventies Japanese cars that shifted a lot like late nineties Japanese cars. Transmissions have been around as long as there have been cars. What is so hard to figure out?

A heating system that can kill you if your exhaust is leaking, or can choke you if your engine leaks oil. It's another one of those moves necessitated by the lack of water cooling, I guess. And it almost makes you think changing coolant isn't such a bad idea. It's an idea that mixes the one clearly toxic byproduct of the car with the one part that sends stuff right into our lungs. It works fine, as a rule -- but again, who came up with the initial idea?

Thermal reactors heating up an air-cooled magnesium engine case. I know, it had to be done if they were going to sell cars in the U.S. But the longstanding reputation of the car for reliability and durability was undone by three model years of cars with engines that would cook themselves to death.

Torsion bars - a radical idea, in its day. But not the best idea, ever, or even the best idea for the 911.

A dipstick that easily falls into the oil tank. Happens a lot. Some cars had a screen to prevent it. But when you combine the fact that every component of the oil-checking process is counter-intuitive and at odds with virtually every other car ever manufactured and a dash-based oil level gauge that is hardly ever useful when you're sitting in front of the dash, since you've got to stop, on a level surface, once the car has warmed up to 190 degrees, in order to use it. And even then the rule of thumb is to ignore its readings and rely on the dipstick. Come on...

And how about: A back seat area that is absolutely useless . Someone in a boardroom said they wanted to sell a four-seater, I guess. This meant a more-balanced mid-engine design couldn't happen, and the resulting seats are useful only as a luggage shelf. They look goofy, too.

And finally: a gorgeous body design that your top-of-the-line model's engine can not possibly fit into . The Turbo was a great idea. But why not do something about the body design so that you don't have to fabricate a big goofy rear wing just to cover all of the engine. I like big rear wings just fine, but it's nice to have a wing be a wing because you want a wing -- not because the intercooler makes the engine too fat to fit inside the car.


Well, that's all I can think of off the top of my mean little head. I'm sure there are items on this list that can be construed as plusses rather than a minuses. And again: I'm talking about my favorite car, ever, so I'm not hear to pick on it just for kicks. I just think no design is ever perfect, and it makes us a stronger community if we can acknowledge a few chinks in Stuttgart's engineering armor.

Any other problem areas I've missed?


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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T (3.6) sunroof coupe

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 12-03-2000).]

Well stated Jack. I (and Im sure RStoll also) will second the 915 transmission having plenty of shortcomings. Also, how about an A/C compressor (York) that doesn't work and never did, and placing multiple condensers throughout the car. The next move would have to have been placing a retractable one on the roof, probably at the expense of the sunroof! Or Brake system flex tubes that don't go right to the calipers, requiring disassembly and rebleeding just to get the rotors off.

Albeit, they are great cars and such quirks are part of what makes them so great. Love hate relationships can be hard to avoid, especially when these quirks cause you problems.

Regards,
Nick.

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Nick Shumaker
1982 911SC Coupe

Jack,
You wonder sometimes what the engineers were thinking...add to your list all the things that Bruce Anderson describes which are peculiar to model, ie unreliable chain tensioners and breaking head bolts through the SC, and how about disintegrating clutches and leaking heads on the 964? And the one thing common to every 911 through the 993......that cheap little plastic inside door handle assembly that always breaks after a few years of use.....but I forgive them because the 911 is the closest thing to "supreme joy"


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Paul

Jack, is your car back in the shop again? Your starting to act stange again, like too much time on your hands.

Randy Jones
1971 911

P.S. Everyone knows about these problems but we keep them in the closet! It's the only thing thats politicly corect to keep in the closet these days.

Nice points Jack.

I'm not sure about the handbrake/oil pressure light being bad though. Think about it:

If you loose oil pressure you loose your motor. The light tells you if you have lost pressure (and the gauge, but the light is easier to see).

What part of the car do you use more or consistantly during an average journey? Handbrake.

It's a rather clever way of making sure that important little bulb is still functioning even when in the middle of a journey, rather than with most cars that just light it up at the beginning when you turn on the ignition.

I agree- brilliant engineers!

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'72 911 TE

I too wondered about the flame heater next to the gas tank. Hmmmmmmm.
And the jack point thing. I agree.
I suspect that oil lines cool better on the outside of the car and would heat up the cabin otherwise.
The climate controls are perfect, once you have taken the 24 month training course. In fact, if you had to work on other cars' heater systems, you'll say things like "Why didn't they just install a simple lever, with a cable....?"

Warren and I suspect that 915 transaxles, wiht Swepco changed every 20k or one year, might last forever. We just don't know of anyone who hasn't ignored their tranny oil.

Torsion bars make a terrific suspension, though superior alternative (coilover)systems are available now.

to be sure, these are not perfect cars. They are simply this: The sportscars that are produced by the world's greatest automotive engineers.


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'83 SC

About 10 years ago, I told my wife that I wanted to get a sports car. She said OK, but it has to have 4 seats. I smiled. Them Germans knew what they were doing, they got wives too.


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Bill Krause
'79 911SC Euro

I nominate the guy (with 9" swivel jointed fingers) who designed the left lower dash "kneepad" mounting setup as my engineer of the century. Of all the things I've done on my car so far, getting that friggen thing off (and the new one on) after 30 years is way up there on my PITA list.

[This message has been edited by campbellcj (edited 12-03-2000).]

Yeah, the 915 is a handfull, but it keeps the wife out of the driver's seat.

If you have kids then you can relate to this being sorta like your one-and-only "wild child" kid that does everything different and annoys the hell out of you but is your favorite nevertheless! All the other kids are well-mannered, organized, smart, and mature --- BUT --- boring in comparison!

Let's not forget:

Brake light switch IN THE FRIGGIN' MASTER CYLINDER!

A shifter lever that I have to haul my butt outta the seat to get into 5th.

Sunvisors that perform double-duty as personal floatation devices.

Cardboard A/C hoses in the engine compartment, where it gets about as hot as the surface of Alpha Centuri. I mean, come on...

An exhaust note that makes me grin and cackle like a maniac when I've got the top off. (oh, wait...)

Well, all things considered, there's only one thing that takes the stress away at the end of a long day at the office: my commute home. Until I get a ticket, anyway...

blue

Ahhhh yes how lucky we are. Nice thread!

Great Holiday treat, Jack!

Of course not everyone will agree about ALL of the annoyances, but it is great fun, anyway!

There was a way, of course, to kill two birds with one stone in 1969 ... they could have done away with the heat exchangers around the headers, had they chosen to go to oil radiators for heat sources in the passenger compartment, and oil lines through the central tunnel would have been immune from jacking damage, so that would have been three annoyances fixed.

And, of course, putting equal-sized speedo and tach centrally located ala Ferrari Daytona would have been easy from the start!

Add another annoyance under the engine lid for NOT having a maintenance interval sticker for the brake fluid, transaxle gear oil, and CV-joints' grease PROMINENTLY announcing that ignoring them will severely punish your wallet!!!

And, one special item that needs REAL Congradulations was the idea of having Behr engineers sitting in an ivory tower, somewhere in West Germany, that have never been in Southern USA desert heat in July, design an A/C system, rather than, say Fridgidare or AirTemp guys who do their testing in Arizona ... in REAL SUMMER HEAT ... as opposed to the French Riviera!!!

And, how about another stripe loss for equipping an owner/mechanic with a great owner's manual showing how to adjust the valves, but not putting the proper P-213 tool in the tool kit!!!

Chalk up another star for putting non-sealed fuse boxes right down near the batterie(s) in the trunk where corrosion is MOST LIKELY to occur and cause electrical gremlins in bad weather, 100 miles from anywhere ... shades of Lucas Electrics ... or mischievious elves from the Black Forrest?

More to come ...

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Good post, Jack...
How about placement of a battery directly onto a unitized frame body in order to save ten cents on a plastic tray? Also, you've got to include the nifty tool kit to work on it all which includes the one use only wrenches that appear to be made of lead.
regards,
jlex.

The most well known design flaw was the external oil filler on '72 models which caused Porsche to remove the feature after only one model year. Imagine the wasted design costs on that one.

Hey! Hey! HEY!!!!!!!!

We are exposing ourselves!
These are the greatest cars on the planet with no flaws and absolutely no reason to modify them!

Back to reality. How about this one: you take a rear engine car that has been chastised for its quircky handling characteristics and you add a lag happy TURBO to it. Now THAT took guts.

Concerning the A/C in POrsches all German cars have pathetic A/C until the mid 90s , I know of someone who had spent over $3k on their Mercedes A/c only to have a car that you are better off leaving the windows down while driving

Great stuff Jack......should be the first page of the updated "purchasing used Porsche" publication! I for one am amazed at one thing I have noted in my 73T; how in the hell do you close the drivers door without pulling the map pocket off the door or catching your fingers in door frame (ouch!!)?
I see the Porsche folks were kind enough for the passenger to have a door handle to hold onto for tight turning and even to be used a means to close the door, but the same handle is lacking on the drivers door. Gee, am I missing something? I have to grab the top of the window to pull the door closed for fear I may rip this $350.00 door map pocket off the panel. I guess this is what makes us all enjoy the character of the Porsche. If any of you grew up with MG's, Triumphs or Healey's remember when you had to carry a survivial kit of two days of food rations, blankets and a tent, plugs, points, ignition spray, etc., because when it rained your British baby DIED....period!! Sure built character, heh? Despite all the shortcomings, the fact remains that Porsche is one of the premier cars of the world.

BR

BR, you should have a map pocket under the arm rest which I believe is the one that keeps pulling out. There should also be another "pocket" next to the map pocket and under the window handle which is bolted to the sheet metal of the door. This is what I use to close the door.

Kurt V
72 911E and 72 MGB

I like the tach and speedo setup. Real race cars don't have speedos anyway.

And I still think that the last place you'd want hot oil lines in Arizona in July is in the tunnel.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but you guys are trying really hard to find bonehead engineering on these cars and you're coming up mostly empty handed.

On some cars, the engine has to be moved to change all the spark plugs. On another car, the easiest way to replace the heater core is to cut a hole in the fender (yes, the body of the car) and weld it back together.

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'83 SC