I thought I saw a leaf fall today, since we don't have a real change of season here I took it as a sign that it must be fall.

Hmmmmmm... I'm just imagining your setup with lower compression, forged 7.5:1 pistons, custom 930 headers, full bay intercooler and a Turbonetics T70 or T72 Turbocharger on it :eek: :cool: :D :p

Surely good for 750-800HP with minimal lag :D

Don't even think about it. You trying to get me divorced??? It was humbling though, when my piddly 198 rwhp got off the dyno and a new 996 turbo with apparently just an exhaust change went on with 416 rwhp.

Ralph

Not too shabby at all! Well look at the bright side, you have built a very strong solid platform to build upon later when the HP bug subsides and you want more and MORE HP :D ;) :)

I decided right after I finished my engine I would like to do a similar 3.2. Nice choice in parts from my perspective. My 3.356 (3.4) ended up with 77.47hp per liter even with CIS. So I am pleased. I had not seem the RS comparison before, thanks. Good luck with your project. It sounds great!

Rdane, your motor turned out quite well, especially since it is single ignition, although I am a bit surprised that you can get away with 9.8:1 with the 98's on pump gas without pinging? You must have better than 91 up there I presume? I have family in Vancouver, B.C. and my parents are retired in Lynden (on the border) and I was just up there but I don't remember what the octane rating was for premium.

You would have probably gotten to 80 per liter (or real close) but I can understand the reluctance with all the extra costs involved with twin-ignition. In my case, I don't have a choice.

What are you running for oil temps during hard driving and what is your oil cooling set-up?

Ralph

Thanks Ralph,
We are buying 92 octane around here. 93 is available on the east side of the mountains. I did do the mill work for twin plugs, just haven't decided on what set up to run as of yet.

I have a big B&B cooler up front in the bumper and while this engine hasn't been to the track I have driven pretty hard. (short gear box and a rev happy driver) Car has a difficult time heating up. I think I over did the cooling a bit :) But getting it anywhere past 180F is near impossible unless the car is sittiing in stop and go traffic on a hot (+90 likelihood almost zero) day. Even then the running temp when I catch even a little air drops back to just under 180F. Car has never seen anywhere close to 210F and I have done my part trying.

Only a hot day on the track will truly tell me more but then I would be running a race gas blend if I were still single plugged so no worries there.

I also worried about detonation. Couple of reasons I have yet to twin plug. First one is Max Moritz designed the 98mm pistons' combustion chamber and piston dome I am using to burn on a single plug at 9.8:1. and 93. At a 1000 miles it looked good inside the combustion chamber. Enough so we leaned the car out a bit.

The MM kits usually come out exactly as stated, 9.8:1. Mine is a measured 9.8:1 because I used a 3.0 head instead of the Carrera 3.2 heads.

That goes for both his 3.0 and 3.2 big bore conversions. Both were/are plug and play conversions. That gave me hope since much of the 98/twin plug info is directed at the RSR high domes that do indeed need a twin plug because of the poor combustion chamber and the typically high compression rations..

We seldom have hot weather here let alone warm weather. The engine temps seem to varify my thought process there so I think I am keeping the head temps down to an acceptable level.

All that said I will finish up the twin plugs this winter.

cheers,
Dane

Here is the update for tonight, Sept. 10th. My original intention was to work on it a few hours this evening but I thought what the hell, I'll take a day off from work and tear it down during normal hours.

Here is where I essentially started this morning (although the pic is from yesterday before I removed the chain housing covers):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094871997.jpg

I figured it would take me about 2-3 hours to split the case from here. With taking all of the damn pictures, it didn't quite work out that way.

Anyway, here are some selected pics of my diassembly today. Tearing it completely down was alot of fun, and although I have "assisted" with tearing down many 911 motors in the past, this was the first time that I flew solo. Of course, my Porsche Motorsport engine builder friend was on hand just in case I went in the wrong direction. He was able to provide me a few helpful hints to save some time.

Here is a pic with the cam towers off one side of the motor and staring at the heads.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872390.jpg

Breaker bar in place to break loose the head stud nuts. No broken head studs.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872470.jpg

The heads are now off and can see the piston and cylinders.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872588.jpg

Getting ready to remove a piston by removing a wrist pin clip and than sliding out the wrist pin to separate the piston from the rod.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872672.jpg

The heads on the floor. Normal looking although they have not been disassembled for inspection. This motor looks brand new in the bottom end, the only thing that I can see that could have contributed to the severe smoking is the guides/seals. The machine shop (Ollie's) will disassemble the heads and let me know what they find.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872766.jpg

The stock 95mm pistons with the wedge dome. Look good as well, not that much carbon build-up. Getting rid of the wedge dome for proper piston domes with valve relief cut-outs. Will work well with twin-ignition.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872907.jpg

And finally, the highlight of my day. Splitting the case! The bearings look absolutely brand new and could be reused (although I won't). It really is too bad that this motor had to come apart.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094873059.jpg


My friend's 3.4L twin-plug with Motronic in an '85 Targa. Very clean and professional build/install, looking forward to a similar looking motor!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094873178.jpg

Not counting the time to take the motor out of the car (which Vision Motorsports did for me), it has taken me about 10 hours to get where I am now. I still need to disconnect all of the hoses and misc. pieces off the intake plenums, but it least it gives those an idea what it takes to get a 911 motor all the way apart.

Will take the next 2 days off to attend the GAF in Ventura and than will organize everything for sublet on Monday and Tuesday evening.

Ralph

Nice work, Ralph. Very nice pics! I assume your friend's 3.4 TP passes california visual inspection?

Kinda funny, the smog guy he uses just looks at it and closes the decklid. He has no idea. My friend is convinced he can't count to 6 anyway, let alone 12. My buddy does remove the headers and puts the stock heat exchangers/cat/muffler on for the test though.

Guess what smog shop I will be going to.;)

Ralph

Thanks Ralph, I don't know much about california visual inspection but I wondered about his set-up.

What made you decide to split the case? Are you changing the crank? My car had 60K on it, used Mobil 1 that was changed every 2k, and had no major incidents. Some camps feel that it's not neccessary, depending on what you have planned. Also, did you check the valve guides, and if so, did they have noticable wear? Nice progress, you engine should be done by the end of the weekend!:)

I have to split the case to make a 3.5L, as the case spigots have to be bored from the stock 103mm to 105mm for the 100mm cylinders. Here is a pic as to what I am referring to:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094910409.jpg

With your 98's to make a 3.4L, you don't need to bore the spigots, the cylinders slip right in with only a small chamfer needed on the cylinder heads. This allows you to reinstall your original 95's if you ever have to.

Once my case is bored, I cannot go back to using the original 95's or even 98's. I am committed to 100's. This motor could easily be made into a 3.6L by using the 964 crank and modifying the 100mm pistons I already have but I didn't want the additional expense of the crank and the machine work required for the pistons. I think ANDIAL also offers a 3.7L kit that uses 102mm pistons/cylinders with the 964 crank for use in both 3.0L and 3.2L cases. As you can imagine, it is cubic dollars and well out of my range. I am positive that those motors would also run much hotter than my 3.5L and thus additional oil cooling would also be required. I am trying to get away from having to do that or at least avoid it until next summer.

I won't be taking apart the heads, Ollie's will and Ike (he does all of the heads) over there will let me know what the guides/seals look like. I can't find anything internally that would cause the intermittent James Bond smokescreen so I will blame it on the guides/seals for right now.

Me personally, I am a proponent of splitting the case once you have gotten that far because it really is not that much more work from where you or your mechanic was when fitting the 98mm piston/cylinders. At 60K, I probably wouldn't have bothered either because chances are your bearings look perfect as well but at 80K and over I would strongly consider it.

As most of you well know, taking things apart is easy. The hard and time consuming part is still coming. It will be fun though!

Ralph

Have you heard anything back on the condition of the valves guide yet? I thave the same problem of occasionally smoke at idle.

BTW did you have a pic of your exhaust valves/guides when you took off the heat exchanger?

thanks,
anthony

Great thread....thanks for posting all this info.

(watching with much interest)

Can I ask what Ollies charges for the head refresh and machining (chamfering the bottom of the head and twin pull milling)?

My 3.2 will see some surgery soon, and I've want to try the 3.4 single plug Motronic version. I'd get the twin plug work done, just in case. The additional cost of the twin plug work seems to make sense as long as the heads are at the machine shop (based on the values I've seen in the past).

Wow, this thread came back from the dead. To answer your question, I have not. Ollie's has a 2-3 week backlog and thus I haven't been contacted yet. It's only been a little over a week since I dropped off everything so I don't want to put the screws to George and Ike yet. I will say this, I honestly hope that Ike does find something when he disassembles the heads, because everything else looks absolutely perfect.

I hope to get the case, rods, and crank back first so at least we can begin the reassembly. The heads can follow in another week or two.

Unfortunately, I tried to shoot a few pics but they didn't turn out very well. Nothing seen from the pics will show anything. I trust Ike, he'll tell it to me straight.

Regards,

Ralph

I went to 3.4L/98mm on my 3.2 without chamfering the heads. I didn't know you were supposed to. Seemed to run fine. What's the reasoning behind the chamfering?
-Chris

You may certainly ask, but I don't want to quote what it exactly costs because I am not paying full retail for everything. For approximately $900-$1,000, you should be able to get the following:

Disassemble heads, surface heads, r&r guides, grind valves (if new valves are not needed), grind valve seats, 3 angle valve job (this is a street car), set valve spring height and reassemble heads.

Twin plug heads and lower valve covers

Bevel heads for 100mm bore

I would really suggest calling Ollie's at 714.558.7334 for an accurate quote. George and Ike are great guys and do a good job at a fair price. They did tell me that the winter is when they are backlogged the most, up to 8 weeks. That's when everybody is tearing down their race engines I guess.

Souk, your case also poses an interesting dilemna. If you choose to retain single ignition, you should retain the stock wedge dome piston shape. If you are going to twin-plug, you should consider using the carb/mfi piston (even if retaining the Motronic) type that offers the valve relief cut-outs in the dome. If you plan to initially use single ignition and than finish the twin-plug install at a later date, which piston do you use??? The wedge dome works better with single and the carb/mfi version probably works better with twin. You obviously don't want to go back in and change piston types, right? Something to ponder...

Interesting tidbit as well, I got both my 3 piece fuel line hose (the one that connects the two rails) redone in braided stainless hose and also the fuel hose that connects the FPR to the diaphragm damper (lack of a better description) also in braided stainless for $165. Beats the hell out of $300+ for the fuel rail hose. While it's apart and easy to access, you may as well replace them. I'll put some pics up in the coming days.

Ralph

Hi Chris,

You must have posted while I was answering the other questions and I didn't initially see it. I don't think that you absolutely NEED to chamfer for 98's, but you should at least look at it when assembling the motor.

The reason why my professional engine builder friends do it is that the cylinder should fit flush with the head. Obviously, when you go from 95's to 98's, the cylinder will be bigger. Sometimes, the cylinder tip does not fit flush where it meets the head and there is a tiny "flat spot" there. This may or may not act as a heat sink, I don't really know. Anyway, a small chamfer at a 30 degree angle eliminates the "flat spot" and allows for a flush mating surface. Because the chamfer is so slight, I don't think it really affects the compression ratio. With 100's, there is obviously no question that the heads need to be beveled for the larger cylinders.

Hopefully that makes sense??? I'm not a great technical writer.

Ralph