3.2 to 3.5L - It's finally started!!!
 

Well,

Summer is unofficially over in Southern California and it's now time to take the 3.2L motor out of the car for the performance rebuild. The motor has 88K on it and is being rebuilt due to one or more bad valve guides. Will know soon enough how many are bad (or even if the problem is the guides!!!). Car has intermittent blue smoke at idle (not start-up). Will go for a couple of weeks without smoking and than for a day or two spews blue clouds of smoke at a light. My guess is that the valve stem seal is moving around, which is why the smoke is so intermittent. Oil consumption is still 1,400 miles a quart which is acceptable.

The car was on the dyno (Dynojet) today to get a baseline for the performance improvements to follow. With a Steve Wong chip, Dansk premuffler and Dansk 2 out muffler, the motor made 3 runs total. The first run saw 197 rwhp and the two subsequent runs saw 198 rwhp. All numbers were SAE corrected. Max torque was 182. Seems to be in the ballpark what other people are getting with the same/similar mods. Kudos to the gentlemen who got 219 rwhp with similar mods. I'm not even close but I guarantee I will surpass that with the new motor!

We than took the motor out this afternoon, transported it to my buddie's machine shop and placed it on the engine stand. Tomorrow I will remove the exhaust, the Motronic injection and see how far I can get into the longblock. Bear in mind that my friend and I are doing this after hours.

This will also take alot longer than normal because I am writing a series of articles for European Car Magazine detailing the build and options that are available to SC and Carrera owners. Basically every thing I do I have to stop and take pictures, both for possible publishing for the magazine as well as for my own documentation.

What did we find while removing the motor? The first thing we noticed that will need replacing is the clutch slave cylinder. There is a small whole in the rubber boot that pisses fluid when squeezing it. Next thing I found is when the rear swaybar was being removed one of the rear swaybar mounts is beginning to crack. They are the original mounts as far as I know, but they are also the reinforced versions. Last, after removing the transaxle from the motor, it looks like the main seal is beginning to weep as well. Everything else external seems to be in good shape, we'll see what things look like internally in the next few days.

The 3.5L motor has the following specs:

100mm Mahle Piston & Cylinders (MI/Carb Piston shape)
10:1 - 10.3:1 CR (goal)
993 Twin Plug Distributor with ANDIAL Motronic Signal Splitter
ARP Head Studs
ARP Rod Bolts
Web Cam 20/21 Camshafts
AASCO Performance Valve Springs
Extrude Honed Intake Plenums
Bored out Throttle Body
Magnecore 8.5mm Twin Plug Wire Set
Boattailed Engine Case
Polished (not ported) Heads
European Racing Headers by George Narbel
Dansk 2 in 2 out Stainless Muffler
Custom Steve Wong Chip for Twin-Ignition
Hardware/Sheet Metal powdercoated, cad plated, etc, etc

The motor is destined for street use with limited track days and thus will retain the std. Motronic and will run using our pathetic 91 octane available in California. Other than the headers (which the stock heat exchangers can easily be refitted in a couple of hours), the motor will be CA smog legal. The heat will be gone but the a/c will be retained (the wife will drive the car from time to time and she insists).

I will post some pics from time to time as things progress but I also have an agreement with the magazine and thus they have first rights for publication. I can only post pics that won't be used for publication. Since the "before" and "after" dyno charts will be published, I can't post the "before" dyno graph from today. Since I am also doing this afterhours, I can't spend a bunch of time on the computer loading images. Posting progress for the most part will have to do.

I know some of you are probably saying to yourselves why bother with a 3.5L from a 3.2L when you can just transplant a 3.6. The answer is two fold: I wanted the original engine case for the car and the cost for me to build this motor is WAY WAY less than sourcing a used 3.6L and conversion pieces. Thanks to European Car Magazine for helping to make this happen.

Special thanks to Vision Motorsports in Laguna Hills, CA for dyno time, engine removal and storage of the car for the next few weeks/months.

The goal for the project is 280 FLYWHEEL horsepower, or 238 rwhp if you use the 15% driveline loss that everyone seems to use. Why 280? Because with 3.5L, that is 80 horsepower per litre which is approximately what Porsche's most powerful street engines put out. The 87-89 Carrera only puts out 67.8, but the 2.7 RS puts out 77.78 and a 3.6 Varioram puts out 79.17. If I can get in the same ballpark as the latter two I will be quite pleased. Will provide plenty of punch even for my 2800 lb. Carrera.

Will I get there???

Ralph

Cool project!! Good luck and keep us posted!!

Cheers, Jeff

Smart build sheet and great starting motor; I'd guess 250 at the rear wheels when she's all done!

re "Boattailed ... " I don't see the benefit for this spendy procedure. You are not going to run near redline very much ..... and you have a dry sump.

Ahh, this is true and yes it can be an expensive endeavor. Fortunately, it doesn't cost me anything to do it so why not? My motor is not a race motor, but we always gained a few horsepower at the top end by doing it with race motors when at Andial. I wouldn't spend $300-$350 to do it but when you have friends in the right places...

Here are some pics from today:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094705787.jpg

On the dyno!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094705831.jpg

Strapped down ready to go!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094705878.jpg

El Pollo Loco lunch at Vision

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094705952.jpg

3.2L ready to be removed

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094706032.jpg

On the ground!

That's it for today, the thing is a grimey mess! Will have to spend some time in the engine bay cleaning everything up as well as making a nice bracket to hold the 2nd coil.

Re: 3.2 to 3.5L - It's finally started!!!
 

Ralph, my car has exactly everything you mentioned except for 3.4l Mahles. It has done 230 at the wheels with still more room to go. Your estimates are conservative and I would expect possible 240-250rwhp, especially since you have the local abilities of Steve Wong to dial you in. The headers are going to help also. How about taking some of the money your saving and putting it in your transmission. I regeared 3rd through 5th to match the peak torque curves of my car. It is a thing of beauty to be short shifting you car all the way to 5th and not see your rev's drop below 4000. Hopefully yours will get done sooner then mine. I dropped mine off at my mechanics the first of the year and my car wasn't running until June.

same cams, 89911?

Pretty car, Ralph!

Yep. 20/21. I still have a maf that I was running, but it is easier for chip tuning to stick with the stock intake. Also had the flywheel lightened for quicker throttle response.

Re: Re: 3.2 to 3.5L - It's finally started!!!
 

I really am unsure if I will make that power using the Motronic, mild cams and 91 octane. It is a goal to shoot for though. Since you are on the east coast, are you using 93 octane? What CR do you have? I think I can run 10.3 max without a problem on 91 in warm SoCal. This is the main reason as to why I waited until the weather starts to cool down (even though it is in the 90's right now) because I am unsure about thermal limits. The motor will no doubt run hotter and I don't plan on upgrading the stock oil cooler with fan right now. Another reason to run headers, it should also run a bit cooler as well and any little bit will help.

I really would love to change a couple of ratios but it is going to have to wait until next time. The transaxle is another "while you're in there" and a few ratios ends up being a diff (which I don't have) as well. Even with all of the "deals" and assistance from friends, my wife is still reading the riot act with respect to price. She thinks a car's purpose is to get from point A to point B. If she only knew how much this motor would cost if I drove into a shop and said "build this"...

I'm trying to get the motor apart as quickly as possible to get everything out to where they need to go. Machine shop, powdercoaters, cad platers, polishers, etc. I figure 2-4 weeks to get the case, crank, rods, heads, etc back from Ollie's and than we can start to assemble the bottom end. In the meantime, plenty of time for cleaning. 2-3 hours per night 3-4 nights a week will have to suffice.

One more pic to share: forget about my bucket of bolts in the foreground, check out the 935 conversion going on in the background. Didn't get any pics of Vision's 993TT and GT3 Cup car leaving for the NASA race at Sears Point though. Next time.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094707044.jpg

Ralph

Running 10.3 to 1 on 94 octane gas. I also used Ollie's for all my machine work. They came out perfect.

sounds like a great project - keep us posted.

Question:
Can you still consider going 3.4 instead of 3.5?

I believe 3.4 will be a cylinder/pot "drop-in"...but a 3.5 requires machining the case. Enough of a difference to warrant the extra $ labor, etc ???

Wil

Wil, in my opinion the extra $$ is worth it but you bring up a good point. It's really not a substantial price difference. It's only approx. $150 to enlarge the case spigots and you need a small chamfer on the heads regardless if using 98's or 100's. Theoretically, it is an extra 4% or so power increase just for the displacement increase. I've known George and Ike at Ollies's for over 15 years, they can do this in their sleep.

Besides, in my case, the Mahle 100's were about $500 cheaper than 98's for whatever reason.:confused:

The 3.5L option is not for everyone and may not be the best choice for most people. The main drawback is the fact that once you bore the case spigots, you are committed to a 3.5L or 3.6L (using a C2 crank with piston mods). If anything is to go wrong, you can't remove the 100's and go back to stock 95's or 98's. With 98's, you can always go back to stock 95's if you have to.

My worry is a few years down the road finding cylinders as Mahle is pretty much ceasing production on alot of different piston and cylinder sets. NASCAR is where they want to be and the Porsche market is miniscule for them even though they dominate it.

Ralph

I envy you, I bet you don't have any detonation issues at all and it gives Steve quite a bit more leeway. What kind of oil temps are you running during "spirited" driving? Since you also have SSI's, I assume that you kept your heat. How did your mechanic alter the heater tube to clear the 993 distributor? At Andial, we just kind of tried to "reform" them and than make a small plate to cover the hole in the tube, but I am curious as to what other people do. Another reason to run headers!!!

Ralph

Congratulations Ralph! I must say that I'm envious right now, and I can't wait to start work on my own motor. Of course that will be at least a year from now. See you on the 19th!
-Jon

Hi Jon, are you heading up to GAF in Ventura this weekend? If not, than I'll see you on the 19th at Richard's.

Thanks for the info on the 3.5 vs 3.4....

Might be interesting to others on knowing the options....

As to piston/cylinder sets.....you then may end up having to go to Cosworth....they even do individual units.

Wil

Ralph-
I'm heading up to Ventura for the day on Sunday with a few friends (Bert will be with us). We will definitely be at the swap meet. Hope to see you there.
-Jon

Today's update:

Removed the exhaust system, which was surprisingly easy. The head/heat exchanger nuts were really rusty and I thought that they might pose a problem but a little liquid wrench (didn't sit for more than 30 seconds) and they came right off, no fuss.

Than removed all of the outer sheet metal and got it ready for powdercoat. The Motronic system was next and that came off quite easily as well. I have alot of hoses to replace, as some of them don't look great and nows the time to do it.

Than tackled getting the fan, alternator and fan shroud off which wasn't any big deal. The night ended with removing the cam oil lines and the chain housing covers. That is where I am at.

About 2.5 hours of work tonight, not too bad. Just have a longblock staring at me now and I figure another 2-3 hours of work and everything will be completely apart.

Ralph

Sounds like a great project. Good luck w/ it.

But..."Summer is unofficially over in Southern California" (!!!!!!!!!???????)

ROFLMAO

I thought I saw a leaf fall today, since we don't have a real change of season here I took it as a sign that it must be fall.

Hmmmmmm... I'm just imagining your setup with lower compression, forged 7.5:1 pistons, custom 930 headers, full bay intercooler and a Turbonetics T70 or T72 Turbocharger on it :eek: :cool: :D :p

Surely good for 750-800HP with minimal lag :D

Don't even think about it. You trying to get me divorced??? It was humbling though, when my piddly 198 rwhp got off the dyno and a new 996 turbo with apparently just an exhaust change went on with 416 rwhp.

Ralph

Not too shabby at all! Well look at the bright side, you have built a very strong solid platform to build upon later when the HP bug subsides and you want more and MORE HP :D ;) :)

I decided right after I finished my engine I would like to do a similar 3.2. Nice choice in parts from my perspective. My 3.356 (3.4) ended up with 77.47hp per liter even with CIS. So I am pleased. I had not seem the RS comparison before, thanks. Good luck with your project. It sounds great!

Rdane, your motor turned out quite well, especially since it is single ignition, although I am a bit surprised that you can get away with 9.8:1 with the 98's on pump gas without pinging? You must have better than 91 up there I presume? I have family in Vancouver, B.C. and my parents are retired in Lynden (on the border) and I was just up there but I don't remember what the octane rating was for premium.

You would have probably gotten to 80 per liter (or real close) but I can understand the reluctance with all the extra costs involved with twin-ignition. In my case, I don't have a choice.

What are you running for oil temps during hard driving and what is your oil cooling set-up?

Ralph

Thanks Ralph,
We are buying 92 octane around here. 93 is available on the east side of the mountains. I did do the mill work for twin plugs, just haven't decided on what set up to run as of yet.

I have a big B&B cooler up front in the bumper and while this engine hasn't been to the track I have driven pretty hard. (short gear box and a rev happy driver) Car has a difficult time heating up. I think I over did the cooling a bit :) But getting it anywhere past 180F is near impossible unless the car is sittiing in stop and go traffic on a hot (+90 likelihood almost zero) day. Even then the running temp when I catch even a little air drops back to just under 180F. Car has never seen anywhere close to 210F and I have done my part trying.

Only a hot day on the track will truly tell me more but then I would be running a race gas blend if I were still single plugged so no worries there.

I also worried about detonation. Couple of reasons I have yet to twin plug. First one is Max Moritz designed the 98mm pistons' combustion chamber and piston dome I am using to burn on a single plug at 9.8:1. and 93. At a 1000 miles it looked good inside the combustion chamber. Enough so we leaned the car out a bit.

The MM kits usually come out exactly as stated, 9.8:1. Mine is a measured 9.8:1 because I used a 3.0 head instead of the Carrera 3.2 heads.

That goes for both his 3.0 and 3.2 big bore conversions. Both were/are plug and play conversions. That gave me hope since much of the 98/twin plug info is directed at the RSR high domes that do indeed need a twin plug because of the poor combustion chamber and the typically high compression rations..

We seldom have hot weather here let alone warm weather. The engine temps seem to varify my thought process there so I think I am keeping the head temps down to an acceptable level.

All that said I will finish up the twin plugs this winter.

cheers,
Dane

Here is the update for tonight, Sept. 10th. My original intention was to work on it a few hours this evening but I thought what the hell, I'll take a day off from work and tear it down during normal hours.

Here is where I essentially started this morning (although the pic is from yesterday before I removed the chain housing covers):

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094871997.jpg

I figured it would take me about 2-3 hours to split the case from here. With taking all of the damn pictures, it didn't quite work out that way.

Anyway, here are some selected pics of my diassembly today. Tearing it completely down was alot of fun, and although I have "assisted" with tearing down many 911 motors in the past, this was the first time that I flew solo. Of course, my Porsche Motorsport engine builder friend was on hand just in case I went in the wrong direction. He was able to provide me a few helpful hints to save some time.

Here is a pic with the cam towers off one side of the motor and staring at the heads.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872390.jpg

Breaker bar in place to break loose the head stud nuts. No broken head studs.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872470.jpg

The heads are now off and can see the piston and cylinders.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872588.jpg

Getting ready to remove a piston by removing a wrist pin clip and than sliding out the wrist pin to separate the piston from the rod.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872672.jpg

The heads on the floor. Normal looking although they have not been disassembled for inspection. This motor looks brand new in the bottom end, the only thing that I can see that could have contributed to the severe smoking is the guides/seals. The machine shop (Ollie's) will disassemble the heads and let me know what they find.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872766.jpg

The stock 95mm pistons with the wedge dome. Look good as well, not that much carbon build-up. Getting rid of the wedge dome for proper piston domes with valve relief cut-outs. Will work well with twin-ignition.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094872907.jpg

And finally, the highlight of my day. Splitting the case! The bearings look absolutely brand new and could be reused (although I won't). It really is too bad that this motor had to come apart.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094873059.jpg


My friend's 3.4L twin-plug with Motronic in an '85 Targa. Very clean and professional build/install, looking forward to a similar looking motor!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094873178.jpg

Not counting the time to take the motor out of the car (which Vision Motorsports did for me), it has taken me about 10 hours to get where I am now. I still need to disconnect all of the hoses and misc. pieces off the intake plenums, but it least it gives those an idea what it takes to get a 911 motor all the way apart.

Will take the next 2 days off to attend the GAF in Ventura and than will organize everything for sublet on Monday and Tuesday evening.

Ralph

Nice work, Ralph. Very nice pics! I assume your friend's 3.4 TP passes california visual inspection?

Kinda funny, the smog guy he uses just looks at it and closes the decklid. He has no idea. My friend is convinced he can't count to 6 anyway, let alone 12. My buddy does remove the headers and puts the stock heat exchangers/cat/muffler on for the test though.

Guess what smog shop I will be going to.;)

Ralph

Thanks Ralph, I don't know much about california visual inspection but I wondered about his set-up.

What made you decide to split the case? Are you changing the crank? My car had 60K on it, used Mobil 1 that was changed every 2k, and had no major incidents. Some camps feel that it's not neccessary, depending on what you have planned. Also, did you check the valve guides, and if so, did they have noticable wear? Nice progress, you engine should be done by the end of the weekend!:)

I have to split the case to make a 3.5L, as the case spigots have to be bored from the stock 103mm to 105mm for the 100mm cylinders. Here is a pic as to what I am referring to:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1094910409.jpg

With your 98's to make a 3.4L, you don't need to bore the spigots, the cylinders slip right in with only a small chamfer needed on the cylinder heads. This allows you to reinstall your original 95's if you ever have to.

Once my case is bored, I cannot go back to using the original 95's or even 98's. I am committed to 100's. This motor could easily be made into a 3.6L by using the 964 crank and modifying the 100mm pistons I already have but I didn't want the additional expense of the crank and the machine work required for the pistons. I think ANDIAL also offers a 3.7L kit that uses 102mm pistons/cylinders with the 964 crank for use in both 3.0L and 3.2L cases. As you can imagine, it is cubic dollars and well out of my range. I am positive that those motors would also run much hotter than my 3.5L and thus additional oil cooling would also be required. I am trying to get away from having to do that or at least avoid it until next summer.

I won't be taking apart the heads, Ollie's will and Ike (he does all of the heads) over there will let me know what the guides/seals look like. I can't find anything internally that would cause the intermittent James Bond smokescreen so I will blame it on the guides/seals for right now.

Me personally, I am a proponent of splitting the case once you have gotten that far because it really is not that much more work from where you or your mechanic was when fitting the 98mm piston/cylinders. At 60K, I probably wouldn't have bothered either because chances are your bearings look perfect as well but at 80K and over I would strongly consider it.

As most of you well know, taking things apart is easy. The hard and time consuming part is still coming. It will be fun though!

Ralph

Have you heard anything back on the condition of the valves guide yet? I thave the same problem of occasionally smoke at idle.

BTW did you have a pic of your exhaust valves/guides when you took off the heat exchanger?

thanks,
anthony

Great thread....thanks for posting all this info.

(watching with much interest)

Can I ask what Ollies charges for the head refresh and machining (chamfering the bottom of the head and twin pull milling)?

My 3.2 will see some surgery soon, and I've want to try the 3.4 single plug Motronic version. I'd get the twin plug work done, just in case. The additional cost of the twin plug work seems to make sense as long as the heads are at the machine shop (based on the values I've seen in the past).

Wow, this thread came back from the dead. To answer your question, I have not. Ollie's has a 2-3 week backlog and thus I haven't been contacted yet. It's only been a little over a week since I dropped off everything so I don't want to put the screws to George and Ike yet. I will say this, I honestly hope that Ike does find something when he disassembles the heads, because everything else looks absolutely perfect.

I hope to get the case, rods, and crank back first so at least we can begin the reassembly. The heads can follow in another week or two.

Unfortunately, I tried to shoot a few pics but they didn't turn out very well. Nothing seen from the pics will show anything. I trust Ike, he'll tell it to me straight.

Regards,

Ralph

I went to 3.4L/98mm on my 3.2 without chamfering the heads. I didn't know you were supposed to. Seemed to run fine. What's the reasoning behind the chamfering?
-Chris

You may certainly ask, but I don't want to quote what it exactly costs because I am not paying full retail for everything. For approximately $900-$1,000, you should be able to get the following:

Disassemble heads, surface heads, r&r guides, grind valves (if new valves are not needed), grind valve seats, 3 angle valve job (this is a street car), set valve spring height and reassemble heads.

Twin plug heads and lower valve covers

Bevel heads for 100mm bore

I would really suggest calling Ollie's at 714.558.7334 for an accurate quote. George and Ike are great guys and do a good job at a fair price. They did tell me that the winter is when they are backlogged the most, up to 8 weeks. That's when everybody is tearing down their race engines I guess.

Souk, your case also poses an interesting dilemna. If you choose to retain single ignition, you should retain the stock wedge dome piston shape. If you are going to twin-plug, you should consider using the carb/mfi piston (even if retaining the Motronic) type that offers the valve relief cut-outs in the dome. If you plan to initially use single ignition and than finish the twin-plug install at a later date, which piston do you use??? The wedge dome works better with single and the carb/mfi version probably works better with twin. You obviously don't want to go back in and change piston types, right? Something to ponder...

Interesting tidbit as well, I got both my 3 piece fuel line hose (the one that connects the two rails) redone in braided stainless hose and also the fuel hose that connects the FPR to the diaphragm damper (lack of a better description) also in braided stainless for $165. Beats the hell out of $300+ for the fuel rail hose. While it's apart and easy to access, you may as well replace them. I'll put some pics up in the coming days.

Ralph

Hi Chris,

You must have posted while I was answering the other questions and I didn't initially see it. I don't think that you absolutely NEED to chamfer for 98's, but you should at least look at it when assembling the motor.

The reason why my professional engine builder friends do it is that the cylinder should fit flush with the head. Obviously, when you go from 95's to 98's, the cylinder will be bigger. Sometimes, the cylinder tip does not fit flush where it meets the head and there is a tiny "flat spot" there. This may or may not act as a heat sink, I don't really know. Anyway, a small chamfer at a 30 degree angle eliminates the "flat spot" and allows for a flush mating surface. Because the chamfer is so slight, I don't think it really affects the compression ratio. With 100's, there is obviously no question that the heads need to be beveled for the larger cylinders.

Hopefully that makes sense??? I'm not a great technical writer.

Ralph