Legal info on Porsche calendar 2005 project...

on-ramp · 02:16 PM

Some of you may know about the current project i'm working on:

2005 Porsche 911 Calendar. – pics wanted

what kind of legal considerations should i take into account when printing and selling this thing? For example, can i use words like "Porsche" , "911", etc in the publication.?

i dont want my investment to go sour. (you can PM me if you dont wanna post here) thank you.

vanwyk4257 · vanwyk4257's Garage

I'd check with your atty. for the final word, however I believe as long as you acknowledge somewhere that "Porsche" and "911" are registered trademarks (or whatever the correct legal terminology would be) of Porsche A.G. I think you'd be covered. There have to be some attorneys on this board who would know for sure. Make sure to let us know when they're ready, I need one for my office wall!

on-ramp · 10-03-2004, 09:24 AM

thank you.

anyone else?.... i've received some promising info from a few personal sources but i'm also looking for some confirmation from memebers here.

techweenie · techweenie's Garage

The news is not good. PAG and PCNA claim ownership to the image, shape, form factor, etc. of all Porsche vehicles.

They have in the past, sued and even raided companies and sized property that they interpreted as violating their trademarks.

I have 20+ years experience in the Porsche aftermarket, and they leave alomost no room for anyone else to participate. Even artists like Jeff @ Wallwerks had to get permission to produce art based on Porsche images.

on-ramp · 10:21 AM

well, how about island911 and his valve adjustment tool?

did that create any such comnplications? it is, after all, an aftermarket tool for the porsche 911

perhaps islans911 could chime in here.

i've spoken to a private attorney and he reaffirmed me that as long as i dont use the word "Porsche" , "911", or any other logo or symbol in the title/cover page, i should be ok.

the photos represented are private photos taken by the individual owners of the car, and therefore do not belong to Porshche. therefore i can publish those for commercial reasons.

i'm not developing anything aftermarket here, just creating a calendar with private photos.....

btw, anwyk4257, they'll be ready mid Nov., assuming i get this minor(?) issue cleared up.

911pcars · 10-03-2004, 11:02 AM

On the other end, obtain releases from the owners of the images to license their use to you for this one purpose (or otherwise). Insert the © mark on the calendar to let others know it is a copyrighted work. Use the wording suggested by the Copyright/Patent Office.

Best wishes,
Sherwood

on-ramp · 10-03-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 911pcars
On the other end, obtain releases from the owners of the images to license their use to you for this one purpose (or otherwise). Insert the © mark on the calendar to let others know it is a copyrighted work. Use the wording suggested by the Copyright/Patent Office.

Best wishes,
Sherwood

Sherwood, thank you. I'm already doing these things. i just dont want Porsche to come after me.

911pcars · 10-03-2004, 11:20 AM

I'd like to encourage you in this worthy project, but who knows what PAG will do? As others have suggested, I would run this by a copyright attorney. In general, as long as you don't suggest the calendar is from or approved by PAG, you should be okay. But that doesn't mean they wouldn't do something. What do other Porsche-related calendars do? There are plenty of books on the subject and they don't necessarily have the blessing of Porsche. Look to them as a guide. Don't use the Porsche logo or the exact same logotype in your calendar. The cars speak for themselves.

Sherwood

on-ramp · 10-03-2004, 11:31 AM

Perhaps Wayne can chime in here as well.. .He has authored a few books with plenty of Porsche related material....did he have to get permission or do anything special to publish his books?

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Books are 100% different from calendars. I've had this discussion with my publisher before. They have to jump through many hoops to have a calendar made - books are protected under some other type of law.

Porsche claims trademark rights to any of the numbers (911, 356, etc.) and also the outlines and sillouettes of the 911. If you create a calendar for commercial use, you will be contacted by Porsche with a cease and desist letter. I have a file drawer full of them.

Quote:

i've spoken to a private attorney and he reaffirmed me that as long as i dont use the word "Porsche" , "911", or any other logo or symbol in the title/cover page, i should be ok.

This attorney is not familiar with the trademark enforcement tactics used by Porsche (and Volkswagen, BMW, etc.). If you want to print up a few dozen calendars to give out to friends (which is what I thought you were doing to start with), then I think that you would be able to "skirt below the radar." However, if you're actually planning on selling them and making money, then you are going to encounter trouble. No doubt about that. Regardless, you will have problems selling them anyways - I won't be able to sell them on the main catalog site, and that includes here (the BBS too).

Hope this helps,

Wayne

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by on-ramp
the photos represented are private photos taken by the individual owners of the car, and therefore do not belong to Porshche. therefore i can publish those for commercial reasons.

This can be a difficult concept to understand. Let's use a different example. Suppose you made a calendar that had only Coke bottles on them. Yes, you purchased the Coke bottle - you own the bottle, and the contents. It's for your private use.

However, you can't make a calendar of Coke bottle and sell it, even if you're taking pictures of Coke bottles that you purchased. This is because you are using the Trademark of Coke in a commercial venture, and illegally profiting off that particular use. The name Coke is trademarked, and I believe the shape of the bottle is as well.

In a similar manner, Porsche aserts that the sillouette of the 911 is trademarked. They also asert that common-law trademark applies to other models as well. Therefore, you cannot create a commercial product that includes a full shot of the 911.

If you wanted to avoid all complications, you would have to not use the word Porsche, not show any crests, not use any of the letters, 911 or Carrera, and not show a full shot of any car. In my opinion, with those restrictions, I doubt it would be a good calendar...

-Wayne

on-ramp · 05:51 PM

you gotta be kidding me, right?

Wayne, thanks for the info but this is indeed very discouraging...

"Books are 100% different from calendars"

"books are protected under some other type of law."

so how are books different in that regard from everything that you just described?
i dont understand this since in both cases, you're profiteering from the Porsche trademark, name, or whatever....

btw, is there a law against creating a book that is 11 x 17 in dimension and that has only 12 pages to it?

more research into this is required... I've spent too many hours to let this thing slip away.

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

How bout selling a 99 cent Hotwheel toy of a Porsche for $18 and throwing in a "free" calender with every purchase? Technically, you're not profiting from the calender ......

deanp · 10-03-2004, 06:25 PM

I used to work for a company that had license agreements with Harley-Davidson®, Mattel®, Fisher-Price®, Lucasfilms® and others. I had direct relationships with licensing reps from all those companies and know what it takes to get a concept and final product approved.

All of these companies spend an enormous amount of money protecting their images and their properties. I have to agree with Wayne that you will be venturing into dangerous water in trying to publish and market a Porsche calendar. Bootleg merchandise is very risky and what you would be doing is similar to trying to market Porsche mugs, hats, clothing, toys, etc... without an agreement or permission from the owner of the property. Bear in mind that there is most likely a publisher out there that pays very handsomely to put out a yearly Porsche calendar and they also look to protect their investment, guaranteed minimums and royalties are no joke.

juan ruiz · juan ruiz's Garage

Very Interesting.

I have a few questions,

what about those calendars with the stangs, barracudas and old school cars?

Maybe a Porsche Calendar that don't have to be named "Porsche Calendar" ? this can be called air cooled hot rods? or xxx nice cars, HP Junkies caledar etc etc

on-ramp · 10-03-2004, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juan ruiz
very Interesting.

I have a few questions,

what about those calendars with the stangs, barracudas and old school cars?

Perphas a Porsche Calendar dont have to be named "Porsche Calendar" ? this can be called aircooled hot rods? or xxx nice cars, HP Junkies caledar etc etc?

Juan,

As i've stated before, i wasn't going to use the words "Porsche", "911", "Carrera" , etc....or any emblems, symbols, anywhere in the publication. you would only see the 12 images with some words on every page. ..

on-ramp · 10-03-2004, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts

If you wanted to avoid all complications, you would have to not use the word Porsche, not show any crests, not use any of the letters, 911 or Carrera, and not show a full shot of any car. In my opinion, with those restrictions, I doubt it would be a good calendar...

-Wayne

how about a partial shot?

911pcars · 10-03-2004, 09:35 PM

Some suggestions:

Make your calendar more than just pictures. As you said, make it a 12-14 page book that also happens to have calendar pages. That means creating something that fulfills the requirements of a book or a reference source: Text, ideas, opinions, facts, history, quotes, spec charts, etc. (vehicle facts are not copyrightable). Change the focus of the book; not just the pics.

I'm not a lawyer, but you should see one.

Sherwood

Randy Webb · 10-03-2004, 09:48 PM

Well, I am a lawyer - among other things - but you need a specialist in this type of law, NOT just the kind of general practice lawyer that does divorces, contracts, etc. Todd Serota on Rennlist is exaclty that - aspecialist in IP law. He might help you.

I do know two things about this: 1. PAG is quite a nasty bully on this topic and their attacks on various people have been beyond what the law allows. OTOH, do you have the $$ to pay xlnt lawyers to fend off their lawyers?
2. A satire will be protected. I wish someone would do a calender or book poking fun at PAG and their illegal harassment of others. It would be protected. The Constitution protects this right to free speech, and it trumps copyrights, etc.

If you want to get some idea what is involved, head to a book store at a univ. with a law school and ask for nutshells or outlines on intellectual property law. You can read them - they are what law students use to cheat or shortcut the way law is taught. They aren't always that accurate, but you won't be able to figure all out anyway -- no more than reading a class outline on NAD gates would let you design a CPU. But you'll defintiely get the flavor and some ideas.

Series900 · 10-04-2004, 01:39 AM

both the idea and the same result occured on rennlist, abandoned due to PAG pressure. Just like music free to listen, not to sell and profit . I did have a 68 911 soft window that I restored for a customer appear in a NAPA calendar, but NAPA hands those out. So wayne, you hand them out, and we will check the wayne for president box on all the orders....always a loophole.