Sticking points? 1977 2.7L

[kach22i]

My car, it's a fickled thing, 1977 911s 2.7L CIS Targa.

I have been experiencing what I thought were my points gradually going bad after only 4,000 miles. No low-end power, hesitation and then power picks up like a wave. Feels like turbo lag gone bad......without the turbo.

My conclusion, points suck.

Before I ordered the Pertronix Ignitor Electronic Ignition sysyem, I peaked under the distributor cap last week to check and to see if I would need a new rotor. The rotor does not match the image in the Pelican ordering section, it's a Tee shaped one, it has a little tip scar, not bad looking- will post photo later.

I put the cap back on, and let it sit overnight. In the morning the car turned right over first try
(unusual- 3 or 4 tries lately), and had steady strong power. No back firing either, and it did not seem to take as long to warm up.

I drove it around the blocks a few times in my
house slippers, night shirt and sweat pants. I was
very excited, it seemed that I must of put the cap and
rotor on just right or something- ran like a new car (but
not for long).

Later that day I went for a ride, the tach which reads
off the distributor leads started to act funny. First
it bobbled all over the place, and then it seemed to
stick at 3,000 rpm for a second or two. It was kind of
spooky so I pulled off the highway at the first exit.

The tach stuck again causing stutter and missing (a big jolt even at low speed- thought the air box would blow up or worse) so I pulled over.

I looked under the cap and everything looked fine, but then again I am no expert.

Could the points be sticking?

I don't expect the Pertronix Ignitor kit to fix:

1. bad didtributor cap

2. bad distributor

3. slipping timing chain

Choice "A":
Install the Pertronix magnetic pick up kit and hope for the best.

Choice "B":
Go back to the shop that gave me the full tune-up 4, 000 miles ago and have them empty my wallet again.

PS: I have dielectric grease, where do I put it (no jokes please), what do I keep it off of?

[RoninLB]

have you reset the points since the original tune-up install ?

the dizzy timing curve is screwed up with the dizzy vac canister connected and operating. Disconnect and plug vac canister hose and set initial timing to Z1/0

confirm that first imo.

[cmcfaul]

Only someone with points can appreciate this. Right after one adjusts the points and dwell the car runs GREAT. Crisp is the way I would describe the throttle response. This gradually goes away over time. Switching to the Petronics (electronic ignition) is the way to go. Set it once and that Crisp engine tune never leaves. Definitly worth it. Setting the Dwell on points SUCKS. Trial and error was the only way I could get it right because a zillametter adjustment makes all the difference in the world. I would also recommend you replact the cap and rotor while at it. Not expensive and easy.

Good luck,

Chris
73 911 E

PS have the Petronics for 3 years now and not a single problem (looks stock too)

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by cmcfaul

Right after one adjusts the points and dwell the car runs GREAT.

then they have to be readjusted a couple of times within 1,000mi.

[kach22i]

Originally posted by cmcfaul
I would also recommend you replact the cap and rotor while at it. Not expensive and easy.

Should I worry that the Pelican rotor image does not match?

I am still using the same oil drain plug washer because what they sent me only fits one of the plugs. I would hate to have the wrong cap and rotor sent.

PS: RoninLB your input has been awesome, thanks.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by kach22i

I would hate to have the wrong cap and rotor sent.

.

call Pelican Parts on the phone..

lets get the engine ok before you start playing with pertronix.. better to spend on a timing light first.

[cmcfaul]

Tell them what you have. If in doubt tell them the part number on your distributor and they can verify that they are sending you the correct parts.

Chris

[kach22i]

Okay, good idea, thanks.

[unclebilly]

I dunno - sounds like what I recently went through. Is your 77 a California Car (what distributor advance does it call for on the shroud?) If it wants 15° after TDC it is a Cali car. Mine wouldnt run right there.

If I were you, I'd try to advance you timing to where it runs best.

See this thread:
Weird Timing Setup...

[KobaltBlau]

No wallet emptying should really be necessary to get the points working right; cap, rotor, points, condenser is not that much $. I'm a real DIY but I would want to make sure I could get that working well before switching.

Be careful with the Pertronix, at least the older ones were easy to fry if you reversed a pair of wires on the install. Don't ask how I know! They do work nicely once installed though, you just don't have to mess around with the points any more.

[gregk1]

Pertronix Is the way I went and dumped the points, no problem since then, crisp all the time best $90 I ever spent

[Paulporsche]

Make sure your rotor can turn to its stop and then spring back quickly to rest.

Make sure the points are set @ 35 or 36 degrees when first installed and then if you still have them change @40 or 41 degrees.

There should be some oil (a few drops) dropped down the center of the shaft. Put some grease on the rub block of the points. Check the dwell angle w/ the grease in place.

Are the contacts in the cap and on the rotor clean and bright? Check the cap for minute cracks or carbon tracks. How old are your plug wires?

[hoosierdaddy]

Which brand of points are you using ? I had 2 sets of Bosch go bad within days of each other in my 77S , I changed over to Echlin and I've I haven't had a problem since . Just a Thought

Jim

[kach22i]

Originally posted by hoosierdaddy
I had 2 sets of Bosch (points) go bad within days of each other in my 77S

This happened to me as well. I brought the car back to the shop this spring after a week with it. They said the points went bad and went on to say that this almost never happens. Bad out of the box they said.

My thoughts on this will have to be sorted out in my head by the next couple of days, Pelican says my order of parts has just been shipped.

I am thinking that if the timing and advanced have not changed on their own, then it's the points messing up. If the timing or dwell has changed on it's own then I have much bigger problems. Let's not go there just yet.

One thought that perhaps I should of went into is that the chain tensioner upgrade was done over the winter/spring (shop had my car a long time). Wondering if the chain tensioners stretch a little during a break-in peroid which mandate redoing the timing after 4 or 5 thousand miles.

When I get this sorted out, I might look into a MSD and blaster coil................need to get it running right, don't want to bite off too much.

[Paulporsche]

Kach22i,

Have you checked any of the other items that can cause weird running conditions, like the WUR, vacuum leaks or plug wires? Have you checked your fuel mixture setting? What is the color of your tailpipe? In my experience that lag followed by a steep ramping up of power you describe can be caused by too much advance or a lean running condition.

Jim,

Where did you get Echlin points? I have never heard of them.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by kach22i

I am thinking that if the timing and advanced have not changed on their own, then it's the points messing up.

dwell changing from wear = timing change

[hoosierdaddy]

Paul
You should be able to get them from NAPA.

Jim

[kach22i]

UPDATE: My parts are in but I have a question, perhaps I will contact Pelican, but this boards suggestions are of course always helpful.

The Ignition Rotor, Rev-Limiting 911 (1974-77) C-602-928-00 is what they sent me (I did not order it - they did that for me) when I called to find out why the picture did not match mine. The rep claimed that the pictures are not always the exact same as what you will get, and used the spark plug images an a example. My original rotor was tee shaped, this new one looks like it will fit but has an extra prong sticking up and is circular in shape.

If this rotor works then no worries, but it has the magnetic disconnect to the ground to prevent over reving, will the magnetic pick-up of the Pertronix Ignitor Kit interfere? Can they zap each other out?

Also I have been planning to install a MSD next spring after I install the Ignitor kit this weekend. I have read that rotor caps using built in resistors will burn out when used with MSD causing missing at 5,000 rpm.

I think I should just get a replacement roto, have all the replacemnt rotors become circular shaped? Are the Tee shaped ones still out there?

FYI: While under the hood this morning verifying that the cap would fit and the other parts were correct, I did a little tinkering. First I wiped off all the dielectric grease I put on before, then I noticed all the wear on the cap and rotor that I did not notice before. It's really a stark contrast laying a new out of the box part next to an old part. Anyway, the old stuff metal bits were tarnished in many places. I took out my steel key and scraped the rotor till it shinned and put it back it.

The car turned over on the first try. Idle was smooth and much of my low end power was back. The car is almost back to where I want it, and I did not even use the new parts yet.

My moring drive down Huron River Drive was awesome, I drove like I just stole it, no cops around and only two bicyclist to buzz by. The fall colors, the river.......and the car running like a champ..................I remember why we go through this now.

Again, if you have any experience with Rev-Limiting rotors please share. Cheers all.

[kach22i]

FYI: I was looking into rev-limiting rotors and found out why my car acted so pooly with a bad rotor and cap.

SC Rev limiter ?

Just make sure you have a pop-off valve incase you get an intake backfire from a loss of ignition but no loss of fuel delivery..

Good link related;
distributor lube...

INSTALL FOLLOW UP:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/186489-pertronix-install-big-backfire-1977-2-7l-post1553362.html#post1553362

[timz]

Kach22i,

Thanks for the updates. I am having identical problems and am considering the Pertronix kit and MSD in the spring as well. How was the install? Any problems? tips?

Thanks