The state of Porsche....

mmm · 08:33 AM

I hold these truths to be self evident:

1. The Cayenne is fine, a bit of a departure from Porsche's sports car history, but FINE.

2. Porsche really needs to get back to racing.

3. The 997 and 986/987 are fine, but Porsche would also really benefit from an entry level sports car. Make it a 2+2, lightweight and simple a la the Lotus Elise, with a focus on performance and handling, and no power seats or any of that other luxo barge crap no one really needs (good adjustable manual seats are FINE, better in most/all ways than power, etc.). Hell, maybe even make it air cooled....

4. Carrera GT: Somehow manages to be completely desirable and yet completely disinteresting all at once. Can a $400,000 super car few will own or be able to relate to ever really have soul? "Drool" + "Meh" = Carrera GT

Who's with me? Thoughts?

Wil Ferch · 10-04-2004, 08:50 AM

We may have crossed-posts on this before....

Cayenne....I just don't think this is right kind of car for Porsche to market...under its own brand name....all the arguments for a balanced product line notwithstanding.

Yes....get into top level sports car racing.... it's what made the Porsche mystique and what is being milked for today's product line and their attendant pricing structure. Otherwise, a "996" could just as well have been the new 350Z.....$30k cheaper.

Carrera GT. Impressive, yet as ugly as sin from a side view...like pick up truck with too much lower body behind the roll-over hoops. could have used "sails" a la Dino 246 GT to give the rear a bit of visual balance. The Ford GT is a worthy competitor in all categories for $150K list.

Wil

pwd72s · 10-04-2004, 09:00 AM

Two major low points in history:

1. The day Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens, and the Big Bopper fell from the sky.

2. The day Porsche went to water cooling and entered the SUV market.

There is absolutely no new Porsche being sold today that interests me.

Bill Verburg · Bill Verburg's Garage

The most desireable Porsche modela as far as mere mortals are concerned are still not available here in NA.

THIS HAS GOT TO STOP!

They need to sell 996 GT3RS over here.

82SC · 12:50 PM

I have come to terms with a Cayenne. As blasphamous as it is...would you rather have Chrysler-Porsche or Ford-Porsche...better yet VW-Porsche

I guarantee if it weren't for all the soccer moms with Cayennes and the "night at the Roxbury" Boxster owners...Porsche would not be the last independent "used to only make sports cars" company in the world.

And I have even began to accept the H2O cooling...it is hard to compete with a M3 pumping out 333hp...Porsche has always realized the short comings of the air cooled engines...959...many race engines

There are rumors of a Z4/Elise/miata/S2000 fighter...a mini Boxster

CGT...i think if you (or I) ever had the opportunity to drive one...I think I would definately feel the soul....

will I ever own a water cooled porsche?...NO

Do I wish there was still the clack and clatter of the air cooled engines?...YES

Plus I think this seperates us purists from the Nouveau-riche -- don't know squat about the heritage owners...(it's fun being a 911 snob...haha)

Wil Ferch · 10-04-2004, 12:53 PM

Hey 82SC:
Here's what I said in another, related post..on the old-chestnut of "being independent"......

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Holy Smokes !!!

Here we go again with the importance of "being independent" that some of us took ..hook, line and sinker !!!

I never, never understood the steadfast fascination about "keeping the company independent". Lets look at this more closely. The idea of independence is to create the kind of product you ( as an independent owner) *want* to build...and not have that dictated to you by some distant corporate HQ. Lessee....in order to stay independent, Porsche is now building just such a car ( an SUV), that it would despise building if it was *forced* to build such a car at the directive of someone else. Do others see the irony here?

In contrast, poor Ferrari...no longer independent....but it has a "benevolent-dictator" in the form of giant FIAT. FIAT understands the mystique and quality of the Ferrari brand. And Ferrari, under FIAT control....was building Enzo's and F40's and F50's. My point? Independence is over-rated. Thr real criteria is whether the "parent" company is a blood-sucking entity looking only for immediate sales and ignorant of the core-company's past ( hmmm...sounds a lot like the team at the helm of a certain "independent" German sports-car company)...OR.... is the parent company a willing partner to offer funding and engineering resources...but knows how to market and build proper product for the core company it controls ??? Yep...poor Ferrari... and hooray for keeping Porsche "independent", allowing it to build products *it* wants to ( and not told to do)....like trucks and SUV's.

I wonder how much staying independent has to do with keeping the current top brass in-place at Porsche, as opposed to building what it *should* be building.

Staying independent...hrmph...gimme a break.

---Wil Ferch

thrown_hammer · 10-04-2004, 12:58 PM

Staying independent for the sake of staying independent is like cutting your nose off to spite your face.
All the Porsche propaganda of "heritage" and racing history is like listening to Al Bundy go on and on about his College Football days........
How fast you USED to be, how tough you USED to be has nothing to do with TODAY.

82SC · 01:20 PM

Hmmm...interesting point...

but how many marques have not fared as well as Ferrari/Lambo

Jaguar...Lotus (just making a comeback with elise)...

I think the drive for Porsche to stay independant is that it was for the longest time a family owed business and many of the major shareholders are still related to Porsche...and I am sure that is a major factor why the company would prefer not to be owned by a conglomerate

I think staying independent has more to do then "being able to do what you want"...independent means that there is no higher person to have to get approval from...sure sometimes you do what you need to in order to survive (cayenne/boxster/no racing) but you never have anyone to answer to...except your customer.

Yes Porsche could have a Ferrari situation with the likes of VW...but there is a risk that it could be something much worse...and it is too late by then

I prefer not seeing VW parts cross-linked with Porsche or the other way around...

Yes I agree it is the dark ages for Porsche from a enthusiast point of view...but I hope with the finacial success, and that porsche still keeps their ear to the ground (993-ish 997) that there will be a resurrgence in the company in the next decade

MJ

PS
Porsche is still fast...faster then ever before...sure they need to prove it on the battlegrounds...but the independent teams are not doing a shabby job...997S is 2 seconds off the pace of the 996tt...which is quite a bit faster then the 993tt

F1 is out of the question
LeMans sure I'd love to see a prototype out there
WRC no way...911's would have so many restrictions
AMLS not too shabby

(hahaha I can't believe I am defending the H2O's...trust me I am no fan of the post-98 Porsche company...but at the same time I am coming to terms with it)

70SWT · 10-04-2004, 01:48 PM

Will and thrown - I agree with you wholeheartedly, and was going to use the Ferrari example myself. The excuse of maintaining independence has been used to justify the doing of a great deal of evil to our beloved company. The real reason Porsche has bastardized itself into an SUV manufacturer is to make money, plain and simple. It is resting on its laurels - I laugh my ass off every time I see an ad on the back of Excellence where Porsche brags about its racing heritage for the ad hype, while it refuses to actually race at the top levels of the sport.

As the sports car manufacturer arm of any large conglomerate, Porsche COULD have maintained its identity - or it could have been dliuted. We'll never know, unless the current revenue-focused regime drops the ball. In remaining independent, its identity DEFINITELY has been diluted.

Porsche needs its own Elise. The management continues to say they won't make a low-end sports car because of the fear of brand dilution - WHILE THEY MAKE AN SUV. WTF.

My solution - create a nice little time warp for myself and drive the cars from the days when the racing heritage was still being made, not a distant memory to be flogged for marketing value.

cegerer · cegerer's Garage

Ya know, I agree with Wil 100% but I also own a Cayenne and consider it possibly the 'ultimate driving machine'. If Porsche had been bought out and remained striclty a sportscar company, I'd have to consider the possiblity of driving a friggin' Infinity or whatever those Cayennewannabees are! Nah, I'd walk first .....

70SWT · 10-04-2004, 04:23 PM

The Cayenne is an awesome product. I will almost certainly have one when the used market is well-established. But I just wish it had a VW, Audi or an entirely new brand name badge on its nose, and perhaps a "Porsche Design" badge on the side.

jfw834 · jfw834's Garage

these are all good points...

i agree that while the cayenne is a monstrosity, it has surely helped the company stay independant and in turn produced the 997 which i consider a DRASTIC improvement over the 996.

what I wanted to suggest is, what about a 912?? MMM, you suggested a smaller 2+2.....thats exactly what I was thinking of. Something lighter, with a more entry level price like 30k-35k. This might compete with the boxter depending on the powerplant, but still a lot cheaper and more practical...... the boxter (which IMHO doesn't at all pay homage to the 550!) just doesn't do it for most enthusaists...you can't even hear the motor!

for 30K do you think porsche could enter the market with a 912? It could share many parts with the 911 but obviously be lightened up taking out all the gadgets and replacing that fat motor with a smaller torquey 6 or maybe 4 cyl (air cooled?)

i just think the 912 was a great way of letting people drive such a beautiful car without spending as much! maybe 997 owners would be pissed? i doubt it.....but i think porsche could compete if they built a nimble and attractive alternative to the 325i, Golf gti, saab 9-3 type market.

at least this would be a more applicable market than SUVs!!!

Scuba · 10-04-2004, 08:57 PM

OK, I'm new to this whole Porsche ownership thing, and am trying to learn as much as I can, so bear with me. But let me get this straight. Porsche "lowers" itself to build an SUV that just happens to kick the living **** out of every other SUV on the market, performance-wise. But building an "entry-level" sports car so that every little fast and furious punk ***** can finally satisfy his urge to street race a Porsche will still maintain the company name? Somebody help me out.

Porschekid962 · Porschekid962's Garage

Good point about the entry level car. Yes I am sure most of us would love to see a new air cooled Pcar, thing is thats a step backwards performance wise. Would you fit torsion bars onto your all out racecar instead of coilovers because it's the company heritage? I doubt it. Yes they sound different, yes they look different but so did the 993, huge departure from typical porsche styling.
The glory days of motorsport have come and gone in this world. The cost to run a full season in any pro level championship is staggering. I am pretty sure Porsche is in business to make money and seeing as they are a very small car company they cannot afford to go all out racing at Le Mans when there is no new competition. Some 5 year old Audis? I wouldnt be suprised to see a Porsche in NASCAR the way they bring in crowds.
So bash all you want. Water cooling was a technological step forward. The new bodystyle was an aerodynamic step forward. Selling the best SUV was a marketing and financial step forward. Do we want to agree with it, I doubt most will but just because Porsche decided to adopt water cooling why get all up in arms? Is Porsche not all about performance? They come out with a more powerful engine, better aero package, turn it into one of the most dominant racing sportscars ever seen and its frowned upon because it doesnt look like the "older" cars or sound like the "older" cars? As much as I would love a longhood with a nice big motor in it there is no way I would pass up a new GT3 or maybe even an X50.

So the next time we all want to bash on Porsche for "selling out" or what not think about running a business and how times have changed since the crazy days of racing. Can a 3.8 litre air cooled flat 6 really compete with a 3.3 litre water cooled inline 6? Even those funny sounding 4 bangers with a turbo could give it a scare performance wise. So let the past be what it is, an incredible tour de force in motorsport and enjoy driving your car whatever it may be.
The future is what it is, change, evolution, survival. I doubt very much that many of the engineers at Porsche wanted to build an SUV instead of going all out racing but they did in order to keep things going, adapt to the new marketplace where the money is. Is that selling out? Who cares, the company is still putting out cars and I am pretty sure the new GT3 cup car is also out and will be racing soon and doing the same thing the 996 generation GT3 did, dominate its class racing.

Bust me a vine, I'm out!

Wil Ferch · 10-05-2004, 05:09 AM

As profitable as Porsche is today...an important element is to ask the question, "how long can today's marketing philosophy survive?".

Meaning? Today's riding-on-past-glory-coat tails can only work so long. Using the 997 as an example....if we are totally honest and look at this car in a totally impassionate view....let's say it had the Nissan badge on it. Truly believable as a Nissan from both a design and execution standpoint. And if Nissan wished to position such a car at $40-$45K, it could do it. The only reason this much-cheaper-to-produce Porsche is OK at about $70k is because if its heritage, and what the brand name stands for..... based on its past.

Give this another generation ( say 20 years) on this current path that they're on....and Porsche will have trouble selling at the margins they now enjoy. They are the peak of their game ( short term), but this philosophy without *investing* back in to the *heritage trust* will not play out well long term. I remember as a kid seeing old Bentley and Alfa ads how dominant they used to be 30-50 years ago! Who cares! And what does that have to do with today's cars and the premiums attached to them?

As for the Cayenne, they could still have done it but let VW ( or even VW with an Audi clone) sell these and have Porsche receive royalties for their design involvement. This would tap in the ever-burgeoning SUV market yet not be so closely linked by association with a sports car manufacturer.

Jeez.... soon we'll see GMC truck division of General motors "branching out" building......lessee..... two seater sports cars !!!! I can just see the board room meetings now !!!

Wil

Eric Schaeffer · 10-05-2004, 06:02 AM

Car design, car manufacturing, sports car racing and the (sports) car market in general has experienced tectonic changes in the past 5, 10, 20, 30 years.

If I were a Porsche AG shareholder instead of a 1972 911T holder, I would be celebrating what they've done (for the top and bottom line, at the expense of the car's lines).

I think what is self evident is that PAG is making business choices and will continue to do so, no matter how loudly enthusisasts like us object.

Thankfully there is Pelican...

I cannot fault Porsche for trying to meet market demands. Thankfully there are place like Pelican which speak to my niche interest

chuckw951 · 10-05-2004, 06:42 AM

We can talk about the state of porsche, what it is, what it was and what it should be...

...but I think it has to be taken in context of the money. For the fiscal year ending July 31, 2004 they had a pretax profit of $1.23 billion. I think we will continue to see more of the same from Porsche...their strategy appears to be working...

Personally I'd like to see modernized versions of the early 911 or 914...sorta like what VW did with the Beattle and BMW the mini...

One billion euros

Wil Ferch · 10-05-2004, 06:52 AM

Hey Chuck:
Maybe you missed this one sentence on my last post....

"They are the peak of their game ( short term), but this philosophy without *investing* back in to the *heritage trust* will not play out well long term.."

They won't be making these kinds of profits forever without adding back...giving back...to the heritage that made their reputation in the first place.

Why is this aspect being glossed over ???.....IMHO, of course.....

Wil

chuckw951 · 07:09 AM

Wil,

Actually I didn't read the whole thread and was responding the topic "state of porsche." I agree with you...just pointing out when the money is rolling in for Porsche that this will guide them.

The local PCA chapter gets sponsorship from a local dealer...a way of showing support for enthusiasts and that's great. But make no mistake about it they want to you to buy a new Porsche or at least a Cayanne to tow your old one to the track.

Gene-o · 10-05-2004, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by chuckw951

Personally I'd like to see modernized versions of the early 911 or 914...sorta like what VW did with the Beattle and BMW the mini...

Isn't the Boxster the son of 914? I know it was supposed to be the descendent of the 550 but it seems more 914ish to me.

I'd like to see an entry level sports car too especially a 2+2. Rear engined of course. Perhaps a flat 4 version of their current 6 cylinder line up. Then VW could use it in a Beetle design that actually puts the engine right where it belongs!

Other posters have mentioned a new 912. Could Porsche build it within a decent price range ( low 30s) in Germany? I'm not so sure of that. I know Boxsters were built in Finland, maybe the new 912 could be built in Eastern Europe somewhere or even the USA.