Performance chips really make difference?
 

I have a '88 911 Carrera, and currently it runs just fine with relatively good throttle response. Compare to my previous '98
993, it obviously lacks low RPM power, given the HP difference
(282 vs 214 stock). I am comtemplating adding a performance chip to my'88 to see if it makes any discernable difference. I am thinking the S.Wong ( a lot of peole talk about this product) stock chip. I haven't done anything regarding SSI or muffler modifications to my car yet. ( I concerned about this possible affecting emission specs, as California is quite stringent about this). So my choice is the stock perfomance chip.
I welcome your comments or experience regarding the performance chips (recommend or no difference). I also like to know if my car would benefit from muffler modifications, if at all.
This "upgrades" are not cheap. The chip runs about $280 and
the mufflers/SSIs run many times of that.

Thanks.

I'm sittin' this one out.

This has been discussed in detail and data exists here, do a thread search.

I am about to add another data point. I have a stock muffler with extra outlet, and am in the process of installing a Dansk premuffler, if I can ever get the cat off. I just ordered a Steve Wong chip to complement everything else ...
I am a sucker for placebo effects.

The reason I started the performance chip thread is based on the comment my mechanic (whom I trust.....) made yesterday. I'm having him replace all of the stock shocks with Bilsteins, upgrade to turbo tierod, lower the car with bumpsteer ,and of course alignment afterwards. He is also going to do a major service (valve adjustment, oil change, fan velt replacement, etc...).

He said that the performance chip may give a few extra HP especially at above 3-4k RPM range, if at all. He dosen't believe in it, although he will install it for me if I supply the chip. He has been in business for over 40 years and says he has seen just about "every thing" regarding Porsches. Perhaps he is one of those "conservative" mechanics. I do respect his honesty. So far,
he has pursuaded me from getting some "unneccessary" things
done on my car. He is probably the first Porsche mechanic to give me the bottom line on what's neccessary, or what is not.

I am relatively new to this 911 forum but have been reading it almost everyday. The amount of information you get here is tremendous. I'm impressed with the expert knowledge as well as
trial-and error testimonies that I get here, and I feel lucky to have this resources available. So, I welcome any comments or suggestions to help guide me on this subject. I'll try doing the thread search also. Thanks.

I don't have one but a lot of people have great things to say about the Steve Wong chip. Do a search and you'll find all you want to know.

And you won't be able to put SSI's on in california, there is no cat with those, and I dont' think you're allowed to alter the exhaust even if they had cats.

Andrew, for what it is worth I recently made some modifications similar to what you are asking about and found some good threads on the board. I own an 89 Carrera coupe and have installed a Bursch cat by-pass (didn't notice a whole lot and exhaust note did not increase too much), Steve Wong chip (made a difference in idle quality, how fast the engine revs and 3K+ RPM performance), and most recently a Dansk sport exhaust 1 in 2 out (complimented the chip but really no performance gains until high RPMs, but nice exhaust note). I am fortunate to work in a place that has an emissions lab and I can promise you that with a cat and a Steve Wong chip you will pass emissions, well at least Wisconsin limits I am not sure if California is different.

Like you I am new to this board and also the Porsche car world so there is a learning curve. I plan on doing as much work myself so even if there were no gains in the above modifications I learned a ton about the car and that was worth it to me. But I will be very careful of my budget from here on out!

Check out partsheaven.com for a used sport muffler, the cat by-pass in my mind is worth it just for spite but in California I know it is tougher than here, and the Steve Wong chip is worth it too. E-maill him, he really helped me out a lot.

Good luck, and let I would be interested to hear your comments on your suspension upgrades since that is the next area for me to tinker with.

If you toss in any aftermarket chip - you're potentially doing your car a big dis-service if you don't run some AFR data to verify how your engine is being managed - IMHO.

Certain chips seem to be given carte blanche support here. 3.2's are barbarically managed compared to contemporary technology. They are also easily influenced by either a well or an ill-conceived chip. 3.2 engines can also be very different from one another given the age of these cars and the corresponding potential for variations in input measurements (sensor condition), engine condition and prior modifications.

So an aftermarket chip that makes "perfect" AFRs for one car could make engine damaging AFRs in another car.

Be careful out there...

For what it's worth (nothing?):

I have an '87 with a SW chip, Borla exhaust and a Fabspeed cat bypass. First, the regulatory stuff. I just smogged the car two weeks ago after swapping back the cat. About 30 minutes. The car passed EASILY, runs very clean. Then, 30 minutes to swap back to Fabspeed and for 2 more years I am set.

Performance: Didn't have the car before those mods so I can only say that the car was on the dyno a little less than a year ago and put 201HP to the wheels. I think that is a good indication that the overall package works nicely. Now, others will say, it's the exhaust/cat bypass etc. I can't say. All I know is that the package works well together and I am happy :)


-Chris

I do appreciate the comments above. They're very helpful.
I think I'll give the S.Wong chip a try. It'll be a stock chip, since I'm not planning on doing any modifications to the exhaust system (perhaps not a wise thing to do here in California). Steve Wong stands by his product and, the chip can be returned if not satisfactory. In the mean time, I think I going to get my garage ready to do some work on the car on my own. Thanks.

akguitar,
Welcome to the Commerative Edition Club. I have one of the coupes. What a color!
-Wade

I also have an 87. If you search the threads, you will find that the performance exhaust did not increase the dyno readings nearly as much for the buck as the SW chip.The combo dyno numbers(SW chip and performance exhaust) was only a little better than the chip by itself. I decided to leave the exhaust alone and put in the chip myself, and I am NOT a mechanic by any means. I have been pleased with the chip, and outside of Loren you won't find many negative comments on the SW chip here.

That really means something because THIS IS A TOUGH CROWD!!!

Andrew, Steve W will customize the chip to your setup. Decide what exhaust system you want and then get a chip to compliment it. My chip is specifically setup for a B&B system. You can also tell him what grade of fuel you'll be able to run.

CE Cab!
 

Cool! I'm in Camarillo. So, where did you buy it, how many miles, what mods if any, etc.

Here's a pic of mine.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1098504767.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1098504872.jpg

"He said that the performance chip may give a few extra HP especially at above 3-4k RPM range, if at all. He dosen't believe in it, although he will install it for me if I supply the chip. He has been in business for over 40 years and says he has seen just about "every thing" regarding Porsches. Perhaps he is one of those "conservative" mechanics. I do respect his honesty. So far,
he has pursuaded me from getting some "unneccessary" things
done on my car. He is probably the first Porsche mechanic to give me the bottom line on what's neccessary, or what is not." - Andrew -

Listen to your mechanic! I've worked with many/all shops in SoCal over the last 20
years and totally agree with him and many other mechanics who have similiar
views, e.g. ( www.systemsc.com/Dealers.htm ).

Loren,
Great!! Finally a reply from a neighbor. You must be just a few blocks
away from my house. PM me sometime and perhaps we can have our
Porsche discussion over a beer at the Shellback ( at lease I used to frequent this joint with my beach volleyball bodies). I'm sure we will run into each other ( hopefully not with our cars) in town. Thanks.

Thanks Noah,
Perhaps I should've done some home work before posting a thread on this topic. I'll do some archive search. It's good to know that we have this forum to discuss various subjects about Porsches. It has been quite
enlightening for me so far.

I have the perfect compliment to my B&B dual exhaust ,chip ,injectors and intake >>>>>>>>>k27 TURBO !!!!!!!!
The response and power through the RPM is amazing (and I've only driven it around the block so far)

I believe in keeping my 86 as stock as possible which includes leaving the stock chip alone and have been able to fine tune my air flow meter to give me all the low end torque and throttle response I need with great gas mileage at the same time.

I would suggest getting familiar with your air flow meter and learn how to optimize it to give all the performance you need before making any changes with a well proven DME.

Cheers,

Joe
74 w/86 3.2
Redwood PCA since 1976

Thanks everyone for the highly informative discussion on this topic.
I researched the archives on this subject of performance chip and read just about all of the threads last night. It took me almost 3 hours to read all of them, but I did read them all. I do believe that now I have all the information that I need to make a decision on performance chip.
At this point , I do not wish to start another hot debate on this issue, which has been discussed extensively in the past, so let's leave it at that.

I'd like to thank everyone for your patience and Porsche community spirit. I know we all love our cars with passion for various reasons.
I am glad to be a part of the community. Thanks and Enjoy!!!

"I believe in keeping my 86 as stock as possible which includes leaving the stock chip alone and have been able to fine tune my air flow meter to give me all the low end torque and throttle response I need with great gas mileage at the same time.

I would suggest getting familiar with your air flow meter and learn how to optimize it to give all the performance you need before making any changes with a well proven DME." - Joe -

Joe has done exactly what I've done to my car and many others at many of my customers.
Once the AFM is tweaked on Porsches/BMWs, these cars are much more responsive
and provide better overall performance. With proper PMs, most AFMs never require
replacement.

Chips are great if you don't mind ping.
Mine's out. I can run 87 and no ping. Running 92, I still had plenty of it with the chip. Makes a difference in power until the PING kicks in at high RPMS, but in general, if the chips were better per se, Porsche woulda put em in there at the factory.

The dyno data speaks for itself.

Also, my owners manuel says to run 92 oct. , so putting in a SW chip didn't change anything I did. Gas is about 30 cents a gallon more in LA than here, so I suppose that may be more important out there than here.

Steve no longer writes on this board because of all the controversy drummed up a few months ago, But i will say I am happy with it and I bet 98-99% of his customers are too.

Loern:
How is the AFM tweaked? Is the spring tension adjusted, or the CO setting?
Thanks,
J.P.

Loern:
How is the AFM tweaked? Is the spring tension adjusted, or the CO setting?
Thanks,
J.P."

Both -

"The dyno data speaks for itself." ???

Not really, as there are mixed results

Loren:
Do you decrease the spring tension?
Regards,
J.P.

You'd be surprised what a little more tension could do. And if you should over do it, it's just as easy to back it off. Let the seat of your pants be the judge.

Try that with a chip!

Joe

Loren:
Do you decrease the spring tension?
Regards,
J.P.

Yes -

On my 88 the factory sticker on the fuel lid has 91 octane minimum which is and has been used in the car. I guess the factory must have increased that from your 84 Curt, Evidently yours must have been the early factory chip for the 3.2 since Porsche upgraded their chips to the "58" designation later on with the 3.2's which required 91 octane. Also I am curious as to other than severe detonation which we can hear, how you could detect what Loren keeps telling us we can't hear? Why would you want to run 87 octane? And Porsche did change the chip from the "57" to "58" to be more agressive. My engine should have grenaded long ago (84,000 miles) due to what I hear you telling us, since it has been chipped since 1991. Currently have the SteveW and Autothority when I got the car. Have not had any problems with pinging at any temperature. The price difference here is about $4.00 more for a fillup with 87 octane. By the way Loren, I get 27 mpg cruising at 85 and have no pinging.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=178204&highlight=Steve+ Wong+Chip+Dyno

Mixed Results?

Loren,

I think you just intimidated anyone who wanted to make adjustments to their air flow meters by the mention of 1.5 percent CO @ 2000 rpm. which, of coures, means access to a CO meter.

I have been adjusting airflow meters without the need to measure the CO on VW type IV's, 914 1.8's, my fathers 280ZX Turbo, 944 and Carreras for years without any problems.

Let's not turn this into rocket science but more like adjusting your carburator to make it run better like the good ol' days.

How many of us had CO meters then?

Cheers,

Joe

Loren:
Does 1.5% CO equate to a reading of 0.4-0.5V taken from the O2 sensor voltage (assuming the O2 sensor is working properly)?
Thanks,
J.P.

BMW uses the same system:

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=2055

http://www.drivewerks.com/catalog/shopcart/MISC/POR_MISC_INNOVT_pg1.htm

"Several companies tried and the result was a slew of inexpensive lean-rich indicators that were only really accurate around 14.7:1. The rest of the time, the best these gauges could do was tell you that you were "richer" than 14.7 at wide-open throttle (WOT), which wasn't very useful."

http://carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0402_tune/

Joe

Another 1988 CE Cab here in New England
 

Check out this web site ( www.perfectpower.com/Technical_info/afr.asp ) for some
info on AFRs. The relationship to O2 voltage to AFRs is not as exact, i.e. nominal AFR
of 14.7 is about .55 volts at the O2 sensor. So for a good CO setting at
2000 RPMs, the O2 reading should probably be between .60 & .70 volts.
Obviously, this is not nearly as accurate as using a gas analyzer.

Randomly screwing with the AFM spring tension is like doing brain surgery with a rusty butter knife. Loren, for a guy who demands precise scientific data from everyone else, you're pretty lax with your own methods.

Again, you ignore the most current data which disputes your outdated point of view, and you focus on old information that doesn't have anything to do with Steve Wong's chips. Give it up.

Why so much controversy here. Is it possible to modify the spring tension on the AFM to increase response, yes or no? Bosch Performance Hanbook has a chapter regarding the K Jetronic AFM spring tension, the only warning is not to make it to slack and it may affect emissions. If one is not concerned about emissions, it shouln't be an issue.
Couldn't a combination of AFM and perf. chip work?(This should keep both camps happy).
j.p.

What is "ping" and how would I notice it? (only at high rpm?) I ask because I just installed Dansk pre-muffler and am about to install Steve W chip. Can ping be avoided by adding octane booster to the gas?

"Randomly screwing with the AFM spring tension is like doing brain surgery with a rusty butter knife."

Wavey,

This is not brain surgery any more than it is rocket science.

I do not consider it random when every notch of added or subtracted spring tension is noted, tested on the car, repeated, adjusted, and tested again until satisfied. And because every starting point is indexed, there is never any problem setting things back to stock.

Of course if you've never done this before, I can see how you might think of it as brain surgery just as I did when I ran my first natural gas line branch to my kitchen electric cooktop to convert over to gas.

It all looked like brain surgery and rocket science until I got started and got my hands dirty.

So try to think of it more like getting your hands dirty or getting your feet wet.

Cheers,

Joe

Hello Joe:
How many teeth did you reduce the tension on your AFM?Did you also re-index your wiper arm? Do you have a stock chip?
Thanks,
J.P.