Buying a race prepped car.

[rickdm]

Ten years after selling my 78 911 SC I am looking again for another Porsche. I am going to go look at a car this weekend, an 87 Carrera, 55,000 miles with a very long list of track upgrades; Bilsteins, turbo tie rods, adjustable sway bars, upgraded brakes, roll bar, lowered, corner balanced, etc. The owner is asking a little over 25k for it, and I have been told by a friend who has seen the car that it is in great shape, and it has all records since new. This will be a daily driver and DE car. Assuming that I can tolerate the ride and the PPI looks good would you be concerned about a car that has seen a fair amount of track time? Any particular areas that you would focus on that might have been affected by track use? How should the upgrades affect the asking price?

Any input would be appreciated.
rickdm

[david c.]

In my opinion, it would have to be one heck of a nice 87 to be worth anywhere near that asking price with our without the "upgrades".

[RaceProEngineer]

rickdm,

Because you have had a very similar 911 in the past, here are a couple of questions to ask and answer before spending $ 25,000:

Are the items of track preparation ones that YOU would make to do DEs?

Has the extent of track preparation taken this car out of the daily-driver realm?

Answering your question about excessive wear-and-tear from tracking a 911, you need to check all suspension mounting points where the suspended items attach to the tub. If the car is equipped with coil-overs, there should be reinforcement where the spring perches touch. Walk around the car and physically push down hard on each corner - each should be stiff, with no binding. Excessive play in the steering rack? Also, pay particular attention to compression AND leakdown figures. Naturally, check the synchros.

Other than those specifics, real track cars usually fall into one of two categories: Those which have been meticulously maintained, and are in better condition than a similar street car; and those which have been "rode hard and put away wet". Your eyes and ears will tell the tale.

Lastly, there is the price. A couple points of reference:
*If one is not in a hurry, moderate mileage, stock Carreras in nice condition can be purchased for $ 13,000.

*At the other end of the spectrum, a Carrera which has full preparation for PCA E-Stock class racing will cost over $ 30,000.

*However, PREPARING a stock Carrera for E Class competition will cost well over $ 40,000!

Frequently, it all depends on how many compromises you are willing to abide.
Ed LoPresti
RacePro Engineering

[Jack Olsen]

For that price, it should have a race history with a lot of wins.

[RaceProEngineer]

Did I write E-Stock? That would be true of a Carrera Euro or a Club Sport. Otherwise, your Carrera will be classed in F-Stock.

LoPresti

[89911]

If it has the right amount of upgrades and the condition is good, $25k doesn't sound bad to me.

[geof33]

While I agree with Ed on most points, your not going to find a decent Carrera for 13,000. Maybe if you get lucky, but more reasonably your looking at around 16-18k for a well sorted solid car.

On thing to keep in mind with buying ANY 15+ yr old car is what it will cost you in the long run. 25k is a lot to start for a mid 80s' car that may need another 5k to get it all together the way YOU want it.

I agree with Jack, it better be seriously badass for the change.

I read your post a second time. Frankly, the things you list are fairly typical "upgrades" we Carrera guys do when the time comes. My car has all of those things (except the roll bar) and is signifcantly lightend and is in EXCELLENT condition. No way would I think for a minute I could get 25k for it. Maybe 20 on a REALLY good day...

[ipapilot]

I think the price sounds high also... You should be able to find a nice clean G50 car for 17-18k pretty easily, and the upgrades you listed might total $2500. If the brake upgrade was to Turbo brakes I might add $1500 or so, but the car would no longer be a PCA stock car and would be uncompetitive in Prepared without massive other upgrades.. Basically, I wouldn't fathom giving more than $20k for it... Good luck, and get a good PPI!
Brian

[Jack Olsen]

You can get a 993 for 25K...

[Chuck Moreland]

I think some of you guys are quoting prices for street cars. Properly prepping a car for the track costs a lot. Depending on the prep level, $25k could be a bargain. Ed's comments are spot on.

[nostatic]

what Chuck said. As someone who is partway down the slippery slope, I can say that you can very quickly spend a lot of money on track mods (the actual amount depending on if you do the work yourself or have a shop do it). If the car is setup pretty much exactly as you'd want it, price isn't out of line. BUT, you need to make sure the work was all done right, and at 55K miles I'd also be looking at the possibility of premature valve guide wear.

[Noel]

The bottom line IMO is that if it has the upgrades that you would want and install anyway, it is always cheaper to buy one that is already done. As for track cars, almost all track guys I know maitain their cars much better than the average street car. By this I mean, replacing parts BEFORE needed, changing oil between events, adjusting valves more often, brakes that are always top notch, etc. That being said, track use does create more wear on the engine and tranny too.

[Wil Ferch]

contrarian view follows....beware......

Here we go again...."993's for $25K"... etc....

Just where ARE these cars?

Whenever you start looking...and looking *hard and close* at very well maintained examples....these kinds of prices just don't figure...at least not in my neck of the woods. A good friend of mine went looking for months on the east coast for a wide-body mid 80's Carrera....and was well-pleased with an 86 ( I think) that is pristine with exemplary maintenance records....for ( drum roll please).... $26K.

When you find 993's and such for $25...or G50 3.2's for $17k or so...the examples I've seen are VERY tired and you can often figure $2-$5K of real work to get these in decent shape.

Is this the West coast market speaking ????

Just askin' .......

Wil

[MotoSook]

Wil, a ~70K miles '95 993, just sold for 25K in Conn. Also, my '89 Carrera was much less than $17K... after I build a 3.4 out of it, I'll still be just over 17K (my labor is free for me).


I agree that a track car can't be judged using numbers for street cars. But street car bargains are out there.

[rickdm]

Thank you for your insights. My sense of this car is that it falls into the really well maintained racecar category, though the PPI will confirm this. The current owner has had it for a year and has an Elise coming in November. I have heard that he is a beginner and not very competitive in the DE's and AX's that he has attended, but the instructors that have driven his car have been impressed with the setup.

From what I have seen $25,000 is the top end for this car, and for that amount of money it really needs to be well sorted and pristine. On my last 911 I really underbought and quickly found out that you are better off spending the money upfront. I had a $10,000 car that needed $8,000 of work so it would then be worth $12,000. Thanks to the folks on this board I am going in much better informed than I was last time.

Thank you,
rickdm

[SalazarS2K]

rickm, I was in the same boat as you a few months ago when I purchased a race prepped car. The price I paid is also in the same range and the car had the following options on a backdated RS clone:

Engine
-2.8 twin plugged GT4 race motor
-Weber 40IDA Carbs
-Phase 9 header
-Phase 9 exhaust
-Fuel Safe 17gal. fuel cell
-B&B front mount oil cooler

Transmission
-915 7.31 R&P
-Quiafe Differential
-Shortened gear set
-Factory short shift kit
-Protechnik shift lockout

Suspension
-Koni shocks
-Upgraded torsion bars
-Adjustable sway bars
-Weltmeister adjustable rear spring plates
-Rear trailing arm monoballs
-Turbo tie rods
-Front strut bar

Brakes
-Stainless Steel brakelines
-Pagid racepads
-Brake ducts
-Slotted rotors

Safety
-Sparco 5 point harnesses
-Sparco seats
-Safety Devices Rollbar

The car also had a new paint job, fiberglass bumpers and ducktail, and nicely painted/polished 16" fuchs to go with it. All in all, it was way cheaper for me to buy someone else's project with the mods I was looking for. Unless the Carrera you are looking at has SIGNIFICANT improvements, I think ~$25k is pretty high without any motor work. Try and negotiate it to the low 20s, otherwise, move on. $25k can buy ALOT of Porsche.

[Chuck Moreland]

Salazar if you tell me you got your car for $25k.....

This is a perfect example. This sounds like a fairly well prepped car and I bet it cost someone $50k-$75k to build, depending on how much labor he did himself. You've listed $25k - $30k in parts alone, not counting the car purchase price or labor.

[Amac]

As we all know race prepping can run into real money.
I'm sure the owner kept the car in great shape, but I
agree that for that price it needs to be a proven race winner.
The upgrade list is pretty standard, It'll be fine on the street.
I would say the engin and clutch is the only question mark,
If it ckecks out $20k would be top dollar.
You could get a nice 930 for $25K.

[chuckr]

Who prepped the car ?
Where are you going for the PPI ?
If the car has been set up right and has
a good track record, it would be a good buy.
Chuck at Boardwalk Porsche in Plano is a friend of mine
he really knows these cars and has done
track support at TWS, TMS and Motorsport
Ranch. For the most part, track cars are very well
cared for. their owners have alot a stake on the
track so an open checkbook policy is quite normal.
The mods done for track use are generally not a deturrent
for a street car, the only thing I can think of is front
wheel alignment for track use will wear out tires on the
street quicker. Good Luck with it !
Chuck

[Plavan]

I think $25K would be a good price. A race car costs more money than a street car generally. A couple of my friends recently bought nice 911 race cars (70 and 72 I think) Both right around $26K. These were very nice cars.
Now if you try and build your own..... Let me tell you, it is alot more expensive than you think.