Watercooled v. Aircooled

[Milu]

Watercooled v. Aircooled

Who really cares?
My choice would be air for one reason: Less complication in an old car.

For me the real issue is wet sump v. drysump. That is the real philosophical change from Porsche and trying to make the faithful swallow the line that the 996 and 997 have some kind of halfwayhouse semi dry sump Yes? then why do the Turbo and GT3 and GT2 not use it if it's so great?

[Ed Bighi]

Porsche could even teach Ron Dennis new ways to "Ronspeak" after touting the virtues of a wet-dry sump. If there really is such a thing. The 996 turbos and GT's all use the 964/993 crankcase, since the 996/997 crankcase/cylinder casting is a POS by comparison. The 996/997 case isn't a dry sump, has inferior castings, and has less main bearings. The factory calls the turbo/GT2/GT3 motors and crakcase GT1 based. I guess they seemed to forget that the GT1 was basically a modified 962 motor, but with a 993 case on the bottom end. A 962 motor is a modified 935 motor. A 935 motor is a modified 930 motor, and so on. Though the 935 always used an SC case. But I think the factory would be willing to call the turbo/GT2/GT3 motors anything-based. But never a 993 based motor, which is in fact what they are closest to in basic architecuture. In effect, 993 motors with water cooled heads bolted on. Why not call them 993 based? Because that would prove what we all know. That the 993 has far greater inherent strength and durability when compared to the boxster based standard 996/997 units.

Next time someone here is at Parade, ask whoever Porsche sent over to do a speech, why the latest turbos and GT3's sport cooling fan brackets on the crankcases if they are evolutions of the 996. I'd love to hear how they answer that. For Porsche to sell something called a 911, without a proper 911 powerplant inside is disingenuous to say the least. One should not have to get a turbo or GT2/GT3 to get the proper 8 main bearing, dry sump motor we have all come to know as a 911 powerplant. But in the end, what do I care since for the same money I could probably find a good 993RSR or 993GT2.

[Milu]

I can't accept the 996 and descendants as a 911. No more than I can think of a 911 as a 356. I don't mean it in a derogatory way I just see them as totally different entities.

I hate marketing speak

[Bill Verburg]

I would take this 'decendant' any day, semidrysump and all

[Milu]

Is that a 993 CS?

[Bill Verburg]

That is a 2005 997 GT3Cup
GT3Cup

[Milu]

Ahhhhh!

Then it has a dry sump

Does it come with aircon and a cd player?

[Bill Verburg]

No, they are going to use the 996 semi dry sump, and PCCB brakes

[Ed Bighi]

Bill, I don't know where you read whatever. But that car up there, and any GT3 past, present and future, will have a motor where if all ancilliaries are removed, i.e, fuel injection intake runners and all else, will reveal a 993 lower end with vertical fan brackets and all. And from what I have read about that upcoming GT3 cup, it's an evolution of the 996 with an evolution of the same motor. You don't think Porsche is going to dump the result of over five years of GT3 development (really 40) and go with something new "por gusto," as they say in Spanish do you? After all, c'mon, I hope none of you think that Porsche is magically going to turn the bored and stroked Boxster motor (996/997) into a ready competition plant within just the period of the Supercup off-season are you? And this for just the reason of showing the public that the standard Carrera motors are race-worthy? No my friend. That white car up in the picture is a GT3 with a proper GT3 (993-based) motor.

[Bill Verburg]

Ed, I just went back to the Porsche site and reread their current specs, you are correct. I am very puzzled because I know that I read 2 things in the original specs that shocked me, (1) was the semi-dry sump as used in normal 996 and (2 )was the use of PCCB brakes, go figure.

[1fastredsc]

This comparison sounds more of a comparison of the newly designed boxer case to the gt/turbo/993/964 case. There's absolutely nothing wrong with watercooled engines, they are superior in every respect. And from pictures posted on rennlist of that 996TT rebuild, the only thing that looks complicated is the variocam system (and expensive when it starts to wear i would assume). And it is a pitty that porsche would use a cheaper made boxer case for the NA cars. But then again, to serve the purpose of ocassional track use and mainly street use, it sort of makes sense, especially to keep $$$$ down. Although i wonder if it would be cheaper to just mass produce the 993 case for all the new engines, instead of having two cases to produce, the stronger race bred one and the ocassional a$$ hauling DE case. I guess only porsche knows the answer to that one.

[jpahemi]

Call it 996, now 997, you still are a getting a street car that has lost all of it's heritage. Once Porsche deviated from the 993 case it was all over. Anybody comtemplating buying a 996/997 generation engine should keep in mind it's not an evolution of the original design but a new concept never meant to used competively(see Andial modification for 996 track use). It's a poser.
GT3 or 2 is the only viable option to enjoy whats left of Porsche's heritage.
Sorry for the rant, just can't stand how Porsche is trying sneak the new ROAD cars as evolutions of the original. Crap!
Regards,
J.P.
Ps. Water cooled is fine, (956 used it), it's WHAT you are water cooling.

[Ed Bighi]

Originally posted by 1fastredsc
There's absolutely nothing wrong with watercooled engines, they are superior in every respect. And from pictures posted on rennlist of that 996TT rebuild, the only thing that looks complicated is the variocam system

Again, the engine in question is a 964/993 based engine. It seems that you know that, but it is surprising how many people still don't realize that. That is the work of Porsche's marketing department. After all, it only takes thrity seconds looking at the underside of a 996tt engine to see a 993 hidden in there. Superior in every respect? I damn well hope so since it's been a few years now since the 993. After all, if the 993 were still being made today, I am sure it would be producing far better numbers than it did in 97. After all, look how much better some pushrod V8's are today when compared to years ago. Evolution is a given. Though I prefer air-cooling for street use since not only have I had too many problems with water in other cars, but I have come to realize that there is always a fresh air supply nearby to cool my motor. That just wasn't the case when my past water troubles occurred. Situations like that make you wish urine could be used as coolant.

Now, as for the base 996/997 engine being far better in every respect. Nope. If numbers meant everything, then we should forever in the future discount every aspect of a powerplant, since it would mean nothing, and only concentrate on the hp per liter. Meaning that when looking at two motors, the one with worse castings, less main bearings, less modules for more difficult and costlier repair and less real world competition testing, would be automatically better than the other one in comparison. Forgetting, of course, that the other is better in all regards I mentioned, minus the hp. If hp, or hp per liter were everything, we would all be driving Hondas. Forget durability right. Forget turbocharging it to double it's original hp and getting years out of it. Does not matter right. Look at the history of Daytona, and by this I mean dig in and look at every single car that ever ran and how they did. Same with the old BPR series which came before the FIA GT series. Then check out all the cars that had superior hp per liter, if not overall hp when compared to the venerable flat-six, but ended in failure. The Tom's Supras are the first that come to my mind. The Venturis. The Listers. They were quick in a sprint event, but never delivered in a 24hr race regardless of how well they would qualify. It's a big list. No motor has ever had the level of success of the dry-sump, 8-main bearing, split-crankcase flat six in endurance racing. None. Especially in private hands. You want to race the piss out of a car and break less parts, go ahead. But always make sure it is a flat-six with the same bottom-end architecture of the original 901 motor.

But if anyone needs the real truth on this matter, just go and speak to Norbert Singer, Alwin Springer, Arnold Wagner and Dieter Inzenhoffer. JP was absolutely right about Andial. I had a friend that thought he could race a base 996 Carrera as hard as he did his 993 RSR. In the end he said the engine was built like ***** and the only solution was to put the proper dry sump GT3 plant in. But then again, I have another buddy who had more trouble out of his 996GT3cup in professional racing than he even thought of having is his old RSR. He just told me that there is a cost to all the hp they are finding. The things are just too high strung for his taste and wallet. He sold it and went back to club racing in his 2.8RSR.

[jpahemi]

Unfortunately, Ferrari is the only constructor that produces only one series of engines (8, 10 & 12 cyl.). The 360, soon to be 430, is a dry sump detuned race motor, it's the same motor used in the Cahallenge Series and possibly the same block used in GT racing. The Enzo, is another detuned F1 engine, I'm sure we all know the specs on that beauty. There are NO "street" units, only one series of engines, as Porsche USED to be.
ED is SOOO right on in his engine comparison.
Next time you think of purchasing a new 996/997, think about what's sitting behind your head. Bite the bullet, spend the extra Shillings and get the proper engine (GT3 or 2); who knows how long these engine will remain in production. Sadly, a Cayenne engine could find it's way into your precious 997, with Porsche these days it's anybodies guess. If I had the money I'd be running to lock in a GT3 before they're gone.
Regards,
J.P.

[jpahemi]

Ed you have a PM.

[1fastredsc]

Originally posted by Ed Bighi
Now, as for the base 996/997 engine being far better in every respect. Nope. If numbers meant everything, then we should forever in the future discount every aspect of a powerplant, since it would mean nothing, and only concentrate on the hp per liter. Meaning that when looking at two motors, the one with worse castings, less main bearings, less modules for more difficult and costlier repair and less real world competition testing, would be automatically better than the other one in comparison.

I'm sorry, let me clarify this better. Aside for the cases casting/ bearing (i know of the 993 case, but i know nothing of the boxer case), i'm talking about the efficiency of a water cooled design. Having four valves per head therefore splitting the flow of 1 large port into two smaller ports with two smaller valves with less reciprocating mass there fore higher attainable revs without valve float. Or having heads that have very close control over there temps, instead of our heads, therefore never really worrying about det on pump fuel with high comp/high boost. Or how about the placement of the spark plug dead center on top of the combustion chamber instead of needing twin plug like us. The list goes on. But this is assuming all the orginal stregths of the bottom end are still intact. Now factoring in what i can assume about the new engines bottom end from what has been said here (like i said, i've yet to see any pictures of a normal boxer rebuild so i have no idea what they look like split open), i'd say water cooled or not it's not worth it for heavy beatings on the track, our stronger cased engines are better suited for that.
So to recap, my arguement, is that air vs water, well, there is no arguement, water is better. BUT, case vs case, from what is said here, older 911 cases are far superior. I don't think there's anyone here that would'nt mind keeping there case but switching to twin cam water cooled heads here. Higher comp, wider torque curve, higher attainable revs without valve float, 1 spark plug per cylinder without the need for two in some extreme situations, i know i would. But until then, long live our badda$$ motor cases that take the beating all day and still drive us home