I'm trying to think of a situation where the maintenance costs of any used car would equal the payments on a new car.

$300+ dollars a month. You can't spend that much to replace parts on a car. Even if you grenade a motor, over the life of your car loan it would still cost WAY less to keep a used car. Even if you choose to keep the Audi, it still saves money to keep the used car.

BTW That 86 is galvanized. A pretty good choice for corrosion resistance.

Wayne

My wife also stays, period. I'm with you there. Cars can always be replaced.

I think you are wise to sell the 911 (Nomex on).
It makes no sense to make interest payments on a lump taking up parking space. I wish you well.

Good point Quicksilver. My aunt drives me nuts with cars. She buys a brand new car every 5 years when her warranty ends. She gets killed in depreciation and always has to come up with $10,000 every 5 years to get the new model after her trade in. She says she does it because she is afraid she will now have to pay if something goes wrong. I explain to her that she would need to make over 2 grand in repairs every year for that logic to make sense.

Sorry if this is off the topic but if money is the key issue I would either stick with your Audi or trade for a beater Civic. I feel that fixing a used car will almost always be less expensive than buying a new one once you figure in taxes, interest, depreciation and the payment its self.

I was in your same boat Roamer several years back. I kept the Porsche and bought a Civic with 180,000 miles for $1000. I have had it 3.5 years and have stuck $700 into it. Those sedans your talking about will depreciate more than that by just driving them off the lot. The Civic also has zero problem with our Wisconsin winters. It sits out at night yet still starts every morning and it is great in the snow. For saving money nothing beats driving an old Honda or Toyota.

But then it looks like you don't choose to even drive the Porsche much (to work, to the store, for fun) and if you feel the lack of use will continue in the years to come, then by all means sell it. Paying high interest for a car you aren't using makes no sense at all. And don't be to hard on these guys. They all love their Porsche and are just trying to find a way to help you keep yours.

It may be that the Audi hangs on for a while, I was just looking for some thoughts on an eventual replacement.

However, I am a little dismayed by comments like this:

"Cranky, ey? You asked for advice, don't get all upset when you get it.

There are two conditions in your predicament that make any further discussion useless, #1 and #3. Next time you get a Porsche, make sure you pay for it outright, and always contemplate the possibility of divorce."

Are you kidding me? I thought I would have a reasoned discussion, not personal attacks, especially on my wife. If there are members of this board who value their car over their wife they need to take a long-hard look in the mirror. The point of my follow-up was to clarify my perspective and situation, which too many people were assuming it to be one way or the other. In hindsight, was purchasing a Porsche using a loan a poor decision, maybe, but it is the situation I face now and one I am forced to deal with one way or the other.

The goal is to find the best replacement for the least amount of money and still have some fun. That's the advice I was seeking, it's unfortunate that it has turned otherwise. Thank you to those who understand the situation and have offerred thoughtful advice.

Roamer,

I have a 2 year old, had my 86 Cab before she was born, and drove it every chance I could. My commute to work is 52 miles each way (Work in Denver, live in Fort Collins for you CO folks), I did that drive more than once in the snow in my cab, not the most enjoyable, but it was doable. My problem was the amount of miles I was putting on the 911, then I discovered 2 broken headstuds when doing a vavle adjustment. I made the decision to sell it, and get a car I could get in every day, turn the key, and zip off to work without worrying about destroying and that was still enjoyable enough to drive, not a tupperware appliance. I drove an Evo, an STI a couple of Audi's, you name it. I settled on the WRX for many factors, one being cost. I pay $14.00 for an oil change at the dealer. I have had it since May and its got 11,000 miles on it.

Did I take a hit on depreciation, yes I did. My Tahoe and GS are paid for, the Subaru and Volvo are leases. I can budget for the monthly payments every month, and not worry about gettign stuck with a huge repair bill. Plus, the peace of mind I have knowing my wife will get to daycare to drop my daughter off and then get to work safely.

I still put money away every month, so when the time is right, there will be another 911 in my garage, I just loved drving it too much....

Everyone is different. If I was in CA, there is no way I would have sold the 911, it makes sense to drive it everyday there, Upstate NY is different though.

This board is full of people that are very passionate about 911's, thats why we are here. When they tell you to keep it, don't take personal offense to it. Try finding forums for the types of cars you are looking at and read what tehy have to say, about reliability, what they pay etc.

Bill

Roamer, you are in a tough spot. I think a few guys are having a little fun here with your problem. Don't get p-----d-off we have all been in that situation one time or another. It's a just case of wants vs needs.

I'm a car/bike guy. It's my profession. I live, eat, drink, s--t performance cars and motorcycles 24-7. It's my crack. The sport and people keep me going when I have to get up @5am, travel 2hrs each way to work just to listen to other customers s--t about their cars. In short it drives me insane sometimes but it keeps me sane(sort-of)


My philosphy is: small house; big garage. Toys=personal satisfaction. Cars and motorcycles are my Heroin. My Zen is driving, riding and toying with my vehicles. My family understand this and have been really cooperative.

I don't do drugs, I barely drink, I come home everynight, I don't run around on my woman, I make a decent living so this is what I have left.
Maybe for you there is another alternative or comprimise?

Well ... it is too bad you didn't present the whole picture in your original post! Your 911 isn't an essential need, or you wouldn't be neglecting to use it!

I think it is a mistake to assume the '95 Audi isn't too long for this world ... unless you have more detailed info, such as a long list of existing problems that have been tolerated and ignored up to this point! Do some serious PM on the Audi, and I believe it will last another 10 years without major problems!

Sell the toy, maintain the Audi properly, and get back in the black financially ... and you may be in shape to get another toy sooner than you think!

Don't buy into the 'we can afford the payments game' the sales jerks try to con you with ... the Eddie Bauer special is/was probably killing you a lot worse than the 911 with respect to future obligated payments, total!!!

Good luck!

Roamer, people were trying to be helpful. As was previously said, if you had given us the whole picture the thread wouldn't have went the way it did.

You've been given sound financial advice here. Rethink the original strategy of selling your two cars and buying something like an R32. You'll be $35K out the door and then lose $20K in depreciation over 4 years. That's $5K/year plus the cost of financing. Putting $1K/year into the Audi is a heck of a lot cheaper. As previously said, if you want to drastically reduce expenses think long term and think of total cost. It took me a long time to learn that lesson.

I say keep the Audi. It's a known quantity. If you buy a used car who knows what problems lurk beneath. I would avoid cars like used S4s or even an A6 2.7T as the 2.7T has some known turbo issues that could be very costly. I suppose if you're dead set on a new car, you could always lease, but that doesn't really make much financial sense because you basically end up with nothing at the end of the lease term except a big hole in your pocket. But, you would have the benefit of a factory warranty and new car "reliability".

Well, maybe. My two happiest days of Audi ownership were the day I bought it ('97 A6 in 2000) and the day I sold it. Mine was a money pit, despite being very well maintained. Its only saving grace was that it had two years left on the warranty when I bought it. A small sample: new water pump at 30K miles, new rear brake calipers at 50k, new sunroof at 55k, new front struts and shocks at 60K, new rear pinion seal at 65K ... Arghhhh.

Thanks to the past three posts for re-establishing my belief in the this board and the reason I posted in the first place. Since this is a dark day for me, I was looking to set a goal toward something that will make it seem less so.

The Audi, while running strong, and very well maintained, is probably not too far from a clutch or tranny and the car eats wheel bearings (alignment and suspension are fine). I just sunk $1500 in it for head gaskets and I am not keen on another repair bill like that. Another Porsche is also in my future, that is guranteed, but will be done with excess capital, not excess salary.

As a new starting point, let's use 15k as a target given my equity in my two cars.

Thanks again guys.

I would go with a WRX wagon (finance it), ditching all three of the cars (911, Audi, Expolorer). If you need a second vehicle, get a used Honda Civic (pay cash)

same here.

I think I read your wife has an all wheel drive Forester and the Eddie Bauer is gone. That is great and my sister loves hers. Use that as your family and bad weather car.

Now for your car, and I know I'm going to get killed on this next one...how about a used Miata. A lot of people on here have said great things about them. They are a blast to drive with the top up or down. A few folks here even race their's.

So when the family takes a trip you use the Forester. If the wife is going part time you can take the Forester to work on bad weather days. The rest of the time you drive around in a sporty car with the top down for 5 months of the year. I also assume it gets great gas mileage and is reliable as it is made in Japan. Another option is a Honda del Sole. If you have to have a back seat to make life easier, what about a used WRX?

Miatas are great cars for people who are less than six feet tall.

Miata's are 2 seaters, that means third or toy car if you have a family. I agree with pulling your horns in and maintaining the Audi you own. Start making payments into a savings account so you'll have some cash to walk in with when (and if) the Audi gives out. Then buy the best car for your needs. Someday your situation will be different and you'll get another p-car. Buy that one for cash. You'll be much happier if you can do it that way.

Thanks for the thoughts, unfortunately it has to be AWD just to make it up my street and into the driveway some nights. I think we are pretty set on a Forrester for my wife (unless I can get a good deal on an Audi A6 Avant or A4 Avant) and hold out on my Audi a bit. The WRX is an option, but it seems mighty tight in there, which was why I was hesitant on the STI vs. the EVO or R32.

I second Brian - the BMW 325xi should work for you and you can get a reasonable deal on them.

A 3 year old A4 Quattro should be around $15K as well.

Roamer,

I am 6-4, and have plenty of room in the WRX. Listen to what Todd said and pick up a used WRX Wagon. They are cool.

Bill

how about a secondhand e30 x?

dunno what kind of maint. nightmares those contraptions are...i always thought they were neat and the price is right....and they are awd

I have a 1995 M3 for sale in Cleveland and have 2 sets of wheels and tires. One has winter Blizzaks (80% left) and Pzeros (95% left). I have never had any problems getting stuck on the east side of cleveland in the last 5 years with this car. Call me 440-570-2169 and let me know if you are interested.


brian
79 930
95 M3
95 Maxima
75 2002

BMW M3
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1100561078.jpg

Details on the M3

110K miles, records from Classic BMW, CD changer, heated seats, upgraded center console with armrest, stainless steel brakelines, 2 set wheels and tires (one winter one summer), new clutch in box (not installed, doesn't need it yet).

Let me know if you would like to see it and I can email you the records in an Excel spreadsheet. I am the second owner and bought the car as a CPO 5 years ago. I would like to get $11,500 for it.

Brian

440-570-2169

Hope my wife comments weren't among those that offended you. They weren't meant to do so. With the info provided it sounded like so many "the wife sez..." stories which shortly preceed the sale of the toy.

Definitely sell the 911 and get out from under high interest payments on a hobby. Old Audis=money spent in my experience, so selling that is wise as well.

DO NOT lease a car. The lower payments are offset by the higher insurance you pay to lease a car as well as the cost of gap insurance to cover the difference in replacement value vs. payout on a lease should the car be totalled or stolen. Not to mention the possibility of still having to pay when you turn in the car because of "damage".

New cars depreciate too much-buy a 2 year old car of your choice-Suburu sounds like a winner imo, but for grown ups I would get an Outback. Still a quick, decent handling car, but has more room and civility than the WRX wagon.

I gave up on the expensive car game awhile ago. They're all money pits with huge depreciation. For the family ride we have gone with mini-vans for a number of years. They handle foul weather very well (I live in Wisconsin-lots of rain/snow/ice), haul tons of stuff, are really comfortable, cost very little relatively speaking, get decent mileage, and are very safe in a crash. For under 10k you can find a really nice 2002-2003 mini-van that will last years with minimal to no repair costs. To help the bruised ego along take the extra money saved from the 15k budget and buy a mid year 911. After a few years, and when things get more stable, sell the 911 for what you paid or more and put that towards the C2.

Good luck.

I drove my 1988 Audi turbo Quattro for 350,000 miles. The most expensive repair was a steering rack at 80,000 miles.

Great performance, killer in the snow. I loved that car. Sold it for $2500 a few years ago.

What's the point? Your Audi can and will go longer than you think...but I can't vouch for the maintennance, driving style etc. Also, my engine was the 5 cylinder turbo that for two model years (87, 88) was bulletproof.

Keep yours, OR find one of the 87, 88 turbo quattros -- they're probably so cheap it's funny. Nothing is worse than Audi re-sale (remember sudden acceleration?) A lot of car for the money.

Good luck!

Roamer,
I think that the Subaru would be an excellent choice. My dad has had his Baja for 20,000 miles and it runs perfectly. So far, no mechanical problems. Snow? No problem. We drove the Subaru out in the snow all the time when we lived in Maryland. My dad used to pull the neighbor kids behind the snow in a sled (I joined in the fun also) going about 10 mph. in 3 inch deep snow on our 1 acre yard that had a slight slope. So, the Subaru (any kind of subaru with AWD) I would reccomed. Great traction in the snow, excellent mechanical reputation, low mantienence cost. Even on a cold morning the Subaru starts right up. I would reccomend the Baja, but it does not have much front legroom and has tight headroom. I am 6 feet, and my head is about 2 inches from hitting the headliner. Unlike other cars, the Baja has hardly depreciated in value yet, and very few people have this model, which makes it very unique. It also has excellent visibility. If you look at the Baja, the Baja Turbo would be the best (only made in 2004. 2005?) deal in the Baja range. I heard that the Foresters, Outbacks, Legacys and Imprezas are also excellent for winter weather use. My friend is a skiier, and his mom drives an Outback, and he quoted that : "Subaru's are great snow cars." Subaru's are very safe also, and the NHTSA rated it a 4 and 5 star car.

I hope this helps,
Matt

I completely understand the situation. I have 3 kids starring down college in 6-9 years but treated myself to a 911 Turbo look last summer. I kept my daily driver, 95 Volvo 850, and instead of the new payment bought the 911. Like someone said earlier, the 911 is a rolling savings account. Depreciation is a terrible expense. Try an old Volvo. We have a 1998 V70 AWD. There are 235 Hp and 198HP models and plenty safe and family friendly. The Bertil Roos driving School in PA used these acrs for track cars when they were new. Just make sure to check out the service history as any car poorly maintained will easily cost you $2000 in catch up repairs.

Keep the Mrs. at home as it is the most important job she can do and the best way for you to provide for your family. But when your spinning off excess cash, reward yourself again. Good luck.

I'm not as wise as most of the men on this board, nor do i have a family. Having said that, i have made the mistake before of ditching the porsche to try and find the "do all" vehicle. Let me tell you there is no such thing. Understand that, because there are very few cars in the world that can take the severe beating of a porsche alone, much less do that and be cheap, awd, practical, blah blah blah. I found out the hard way. Settle for something practical but don't try to make it a replacement for the 911, that's a mistake. Instead, wait for the day that you are financially stable and have another 911 in sight. good luck

I'll tell you... slap some studded snow tires on that P-car and you would be amazed at what it could do!!!

But, being in debt for the car is a whole other issue. The real question is a cost analysis. How much do you have in the P-car total? Including interest... PM etc.? You might still be losing in the long haul.

Also, a definate chill pill must be taken. I don't think anyone here would SERIOUSLY tell you to loose the wife and keep the car (maybe a couple) take it tongue-in-cheek...

Good advice, gzulli, 1fastredsc, and geof33. I agree that there is really no replacement for the 911. It is a great car, and if you do sell the 911, then save up to buy another one when you are financially able to :).

Matt

ha! You obviously weren't around here during my first 911 fiasco oh so many years ago... :p

Thanks guys!

I know there is no REPLACEMENT for the 911, that is why my future wish list includes a 993 C2S. The car is meant to be a stop gap until the situation presents itself where I can get the 993. Selling the 911 is not just to get into a better financial situation, it is to liquidate equity to act as a "cushion" while my wife is in between jobs. Otherwise I would agree with many of your arguments regarding owning an essentially non-depreciating car.

I think we are pretty well settled on the Subaru for my wife, unless we can get a steal on an 99 A6 Avant. My Audi has oil leaks which I cannot seem to chase down, just when I think I have them solved, new ones pop up. It is an inherent weekness in Audis. Quite frankly, the newer car for me would only arise when and if my wife finds a part-time job.

The V70 AWD is interesting for my wife, but I thought that reliability on those were shaky at best? What would I have to look out for?

As for the e30 325ix (E46's are 325xi, go figure?), I looked at those when I purchased my Audi and they a few years older, so that sends us down the wrong road. The problem with the newer bimmers is that they are just so damn expensive, you could not get a 325xi for 15k.

Brian, an M3 would be a perfect stop gap if I did not live in the "snowier" part of Buffalo, NY. I have a friend who also lives on the east side of Cleveland and he says there is no comparison to what I get. I frequently plow my driveway and street with my bumper on my Audi! My father had a Lincoln LS with snows and traction control and he could get into the Town where I lived but could not make it up into the hills where my home is, so I would have to drive down and get him with my Audi or SUV.

Lastly, to those who think I overreacted, the problem is in the format of message boards. If someone does not use a "smile" of some sort to impart some emotion upon their words or finish with a "just kidding", how else am I to take their statements? I also find it interesting that those toward who I directed my statements are no longer participating. There is no need for the more understanding members of this board to apologize for the jerks, there are some in every crowd. I am over it and am enjoying the conversation that has ensued.

Thank you.

P.S. I woke up this morning thinking what about a 914 3.2 project? ;) Spend it when you get it . . .

A 3 series BMW would be too small, as would an Audi A4. The Volvo might be a good choice. We have had our '97 T-5 for almost 8 years and 150k. Reliability was rock solid up to about 120k and then it was several things you would expect: ABS computer chip, A/C, and the seals on the turbo are starting to go. IMHO, a pretty solid car.

:) Good choice. On a side note, as for the 325ix, i wouldn't go there. I'm building an 88 Audi 4000 quattro SCCA rally car for a friend , and i also suggested the BMW as a candidate. My friend is a very well educated mechanic, and the drivetrain on the 325ix are rather odd, making them more pricy for fixing. An older audi would be the hot ticket for cost/reliability.

But i'm not a practical person, so a 993 C4S gets my vote.SmileWavy

As what to look for in a V70, try to find a car that has the service history available. I would look for one with the least miles possible. Keep in mind a good test of a maintained V,S or 850 Volvo is if the engine belt was changed religiously every 60,000 miles. I have two (850 and V70 AWD) and the AWD is more expensive maintenance. Simply more moving parts to go wrong. And the AWD will give up 2-3 Mpg in economy. Don't be afraid of consider a FWD Volvo. They are great in snow (the Swedes know how to deal with the white stuff.)

If your are interested in these vehicles visit www.brickboard.com for a pelican type user board. The folks tend to be a great resource. Good luck.

Roamer,

Many of us have been down this road before. Definitely not preaching but what I have learned is that cash is definitely king. Since you said the equity from the sale of the 911 would be a "nest egg", I would hold onto the nest egg and continue to drive the Audi. If the Audi needs repairs, dip into the nest egg but try to keep a positive balance until things get better.

Good luck.

Adscab, that is what I am leaning toward right now . . .

I bought a 1997 Honda CRV for $8K with 64K miles 1-owner private sale. it got totaled in a rear end chain collision, 3 months later by other party's fault. the insurance payout was $11,800 and I bought an identical (except getting a manual gearbox instead of utomatic) 1999 CR-V for $12K!! That was my daily driver and family car. My 1985 Carrera with 132K miles is up for sale and I hope to get $14K for it. Forget the more expensive and fun"ner" WRX, Audis, etc. I expect to run the CR-V into the ground after logging 200+K miles for my initial costs of $8k and $500 future costs of timing belt maintenance at 100k miles.

Interesting stuff here. I'd sell Audi and 911, and buy a CRV or a used Passat w/4x, and a 944-decent 944's can be had for under 4k. Its not the 911, but will get serious mpg as a commuter and still be a fun trackday car. Just don't hope to ax one seriously.

The maintainence $'s are higher in ratio to value than the 911, but its still very doable.