So many failed PPI's...what do I need to change in my search?
 

Since the summer I have spent over $663 on three PPI's.

Any suggestions on what I should change so I stop dumping money into a hole? I know the PPI's have saved me from buying a basket case, but I'm trying to go about it in a smarter method.

Should I only look for cars with a history going back several owners or five years? The three I looked at had paperwork from only the current owner.

Should I buy only from a true Porsche nut? The three sellers had in common: the 911 was just another sports car and nothing more. All three were moving on to luxury sedans. Nothing wrong with that, but it seems some services were skipped to save money (wheel bearings, valve adjustments, torn cv boots).

Thank you.

Howard

up your price and look for one from an anal p-car nut.

look at PCA websites. not the national site but the regional and zone sites.

Sounds to me like the PPI system is working but then again it depends on your threshold for failure. Wheel bearings and CV boots or valve adjustments won't kill a deal for me. As long as the rest of the car is sound I'd either negotiate the price down to cover the repairs or have the owner repair them and then pay the negotiated price. Your alternative is to find a perfectly maintained car with no repairs required and pay the extra cash accordingly. Those are also DYI projects and a great way to learn if you're mechanically incline.

I had a similar experience. 3 failed PPIs, $650 spent & I gave up for a while. Then when I wasn't really looking, I found the car I bought.

So hang in there. You'll find it. Just look at the $s as your first investment in your Porsche.

Ian

Perhaps you should do a more thorough filtering process when you come upon a car that is a possibility. For example, only go the PPI route if the car is well documented and the owner shows a positive attitude about maintenance.

Also, look at enthusiast fora for a car. The Washington Post has lots of cars, but many are not well maitained. Use the Porsche Cars for Sale on this board (there was a '69 911 for sale in MD this week). Also, the PANO classified and the regional PCA newsletter classified

The perfect car isn't out there. My PPI came up with a few problems that I could live with or fix in the near future. Figure out what you're willing to accept or up your price accordingly. There are always going to be deal breakers and I suppose it would suck if you've run into three in a row. Maybe sit back and give it a break for a while (saving up more purchase money in the meantime).

I looked at one of these failed cars for Ian and it was one of the cleanest Carrera's I've seen. If I remember correctly it had bad leakdown during the PPI. So even if you have high standards on your filtering process, you'll still weed out a few with a good PPI.

Keep up the search, there are good ones out there.

Are you expecting a perfect car? These are the cars owned by fanatics that also think their 3.2 Carrera is worth $22k. Better to buy one in good basic condition for $16k and put $2k of repairs into it.

With a neglected car, the number is more like $4000 to get EVERYTHING back to perfect condition for a 3.2.

I would buy that perfect 22K car from the p-nut.

Thanks guys. It just kills me to get so close sometimes. The night before I am already imagining driving the car home.

I have Waynes book and will do most of the maintenance myself. What killed the deals for me were leakdowns, transmissions with bad syncros (among other problems), and massive oil leaks.

The last two PPI's were long distance so I could haved saved money by catching it with a test drive/walkaround.

From now on I will only PPI cars I see in person beforehand. I'll reserve the long distance PPI in cases were a respected pelican member is the seller.

If I was looking for a 1988 for 15k, I know I am going to run into problems. I figured for an '88 for 19k should be a better sorted car.

I think that's your problem. Most guys with 78-83 SCs "think" their garage queens are worth more than that. Especially if they've cleaned the wheel wells, powder painted the fan and polished the Fuchs and have less than three oil leaks.

Howard, I'm in G'burg too. If you would like, you can check out my '79 911SC. I flew out to CO, bought it without a PPI, and drove it all the way back with no problems. Since then I have been driving it daily for the past year and a half. :D
Let me know.

Well..you can get a solid SC for around 10k and save your money for a problem or put the money down on a 993... or spend the little extra on the the perfect carrera.... but, eventually they will all need something....it's only money..and your Porsche will get it eventually..There should be a ton of cars in the potomac region pca area.. the site nearest you to check out would be pcapotomac.org.....may not have tons in the listings but, lots in the area..
Good luck

What is your criteria for a car (Budget, Model, etc)? If you are expecting to find a SC for $10K for example that doesn't need a bunch of work, then you are dreaming. Also East Coast car are more expensive but also seem to have less miles and are generally in better shape since they are not driven as much. IMHO

When I bought mine, I talked to the owners of about 15-20 cars, looked at two, one failed PPI and the other I bought. It took me about a year, but I was looking for the "Right" car.

Hang in there. You may have spent >$600, but you probably saved even more than if you ended up with a car with major issues. :)

Plan on 20... for a well sorted car. Things to remember, the 915 is funky and notchy (not as bad with the g-50). Though some think the syncros are bad more often a clutch adjust is all that is nec.

With leakdowns etc... I'd be more concerned with compresion readings. Define MASSIVE oil leaks? Easy fix with new valve gaskets or are we talking case/seals?

The original oil lines (the small feeder to the cams) are most likley going to be leaky. They are old.

What is your failure threshold??? Also, get picks of the cars before doing the PPI... Search locally. Most areas have a Porsche mech within 100-200 miles. Easily drivable....

Some thoughts...:D

Are you looking at the cars first?

I've never had a car fail a PPI (I usually don't even get them done unless the car involves spending some real $$, and even then I've done it without any problems). But I don't buy cars with no records, no history, a bunch of serial owners, a history of going through a bunch of car auctions, etc.

When I go to look at a car, I analyze everything. Starting with the owner, his house, even his shoes, then moving to his sales speech. BS is usually obvious.

Moving to the car, it's usually pretty easy. There are cars that have been properly cared for and cars that have not. There are honest, solid cars (for 911s these days, that is probably around 10% of the population), and there's everything else that I wouldn't even consider.

It's usually easy to tell. What do I look for? In 2 words: Deferred maintenance. If the owner has been deferring repairs and maintenance, it's not the type of car I want to buy or the type of owner I want to buy from. It's a smoke that usually signifies a fire you can't see.

Oil leaks are a good start. I ask that first on the phone. If the car has no leaks, that's a very good sign - the sign of an owner that takes care of problems when they pop up. If a 15-20 year old 911 has a nice, dry, reasonably clean underside of the engine, that is a very good sign that it has been well maintained in its life.

Records are another thing. I don't buy any significant dollar car without records. Not so much for the records per se, but because what the records tell me about the owner. That he cares about the car enough to 1) get it serviced, and 2) keep the records.

A car with no records and oily underneath, for example, is a non-starter. I'd never waste PPI $$ on that. You say that you've had failed PPI's for "massive oil leaks," why are you throwing PPI money at cars with massive oil leaks?!?

By the time I spring for a PPI, I've examined the car pretty closely. The only thing I'm really looking for in the PPI are things like broken head studs, and leakdown/compression numbers.

Anyways, that's how I've done it.

But ask him how much $ he's put into it ;)

Seriously though, buy a car with a good engine and body that's reasonably well cared for if your budget can't afford someone's garage queen. The next three best things you can buy:

1. Wayne's book.
2. A set of tools.
3. A membership to www.dorkiphus.com. We are having a discount sale on memberships . Normally $150. But I will give you $10% off this week. There are a bunch of us nuts in your area...when we have nothing of our own to work on, we work on each other's car. Last week we dropped my engine.

The owner of mine wanted $14000 (99K, 83 SC) and it needed front brake bearing, new heater hoses, hood shocks and a bunch of cosmetic stuff I still haven't gotten to.

Passed the PPI OK, but since then I have been catching up on all the maintenance since it only saw ~15K miles from 1993-2003. I have also had to put in a new igintion system since the only-5-years old Permatune died 5 months after I bought the car.

Come join in person on dorkiphus.com, we'll school you on what to look for.

Here's how i would approach the PPI thing,
Ask the Owner :
1)- About any cosmetic/mechanicals flaws & have him send you the picts esp interior one.
2)- Ask him about the maintanence & oil changes etc etc
3)- Ask him how long has he owned the car,the longer he has owned it the more he would know about the car
Before you do a PPI :
4)- Have some one from the board go and look at the car for you.I recently looked at a C2 cab for a pelican member from CA and saved him quite a bit of money by advising him against the PPI,would have been waste of time/money ( car was not correctly described to him )
Moving on to PPI :
5)- Have the dealer look at the car in general first,like the exterior for stone chips,mismatch panels/over sprays,worn out seats & worn out handbrake handle and stuff like that.I would also have the mechanic comment on the tires,engine condition and any obvious leaks.This should not cost you more then $150.Once the car has cleared all these requirements only then proceed to the Compression/leakdown testing,which i am sure will set you back atleast $400 ).
Having said all that always remember " a low mileage car doesn't always means it's in a mint condition "
Any way if you need any help in or around Louisville,KY area i'll be more then happy to look at the car for you.Btw remember we are talking about 10-20 year old cars and no matter how well they have been taken care of they still would have some issues,cosmetic/mechanical,that you would need to address sooner or later. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1103410497.jpg

Don't hate because even with how much $$ I have put into it, I am still way below what you paid for your targa ;) . I think Howard is already a Dorkiphus member.
Steve, I drove my 911 today, did you drive yours?:p

I am looking for anything (no cab) from 83-88 911. Budget max is $19k with mileage under 100k.

For $663, you could have done the wheel bearings, CV boots and valve adjustments.

Stop looking for the perfect used 911...it aint out there at a reasonable cost.

Be prepared to spend $2-5,000 to recondition and bring any older 911 back to speed.

If you cant hack that...youd better stick to a normal car.

Failure threshholds would be bad compression /leakdown or gearbox that required a rebuild.

When I did the two out of state PPI's, I got burned by the sellers just flat out lying. Pictures were sent to me but unfortunately they can make a beater look like a concourse car.

The ideal car would be mine. An 87 owned by me for 17 of it's 18 year life, has 36k miles, always covered and garaged, completely serviced at least once a year by a master Porsche mechanic......

But sorry, it's not for sale.;)

That's tough - I don't know why sellers do that, it seems counterproductive. The worst thing IMO that a seller can do is set up the expectation too high so that a buyer's first reaction on seeing the car is disappointment. I've always underpromised, then overdelivered. Every car I've sold has almost always sold to the first guy who looked at it.

One tip for long distance - Post on this board asking a local pelican to look at the car. I've done it for others, and others have done it for me and it's saved everyone a lot of time and aggravation!

I don't think there's much you could be doing differently, other than just looking at local cars. If there aren't many around you, you don't have much choice but to look long distance. You could try grilling the seller on the phone, and reminding him that the forthcoming PPI will reveal all, so he might as well come clean and save everyone some time.

I think that you are on the right path. Its good to be picky about these cars. I went through a fairly similar process with having multiple PPIs done. One way I was able to get away with having multiples done was by carefully reviewing exactly what I was looking for out of a 911 with my mechanic. There were 2 cars that I brought in for inspection that lasted all of 5 minutes each on the lift before calling it off. And that was not because they were bad cars, they just didn't meet what I was looking for. One of them I still ponder about, a 73.5T in fantastic shape, but it didn't have S calipers or sway bar, plus minor accident damage repaired poorly. The cost to rectify those issues to make it at daily driver plus frequent DE made it instantly too expensive.

One of the best tools in my search was my mechanic as my ally and eyes/ears for other cars coming up for sale. There were a number of times I stopped by his shop to ask about cars for sale, and typically he knew the car or who worked on the car, and could give me an instant thumbs up or down to even go look at it. Another way to accomplish this may be through your local PCA.

One other approach is to broaden search range. Its look like you are only looking at Carreras. Why not look at SCs? That 18k SC might be twice the car of the 18k Carrera. I did that. I initially looked only at 72/73 and 78-83 911s, and wound up buying a 77, a car I vowed I would not even consider, a car that I kept for a weekend, found nothing wrong (well, the center vents were cracked), and returned it saying I wouln't buy it simply because it was a 2.7. In fact after thinking about it for 2 more weeks and looking at a couple of more SCs, I realized it was the best car that I had looked at by far, and I should just buy it.

One other thing to think about, is only looking at local cars. Sure this may take longer, but then you can be the judge before spend any $ on a PPI. Or for those distant cars, maybe get a fellow Pelican to check out the car before the PPI. I'm sure there are people in this community who would gladly do that.

Good luck with your search.

There are a ton of good cars here in SoCal. If you're serious, get on a plane, and take a mini-vacation out here and look at a few...

-Wayne

SoCal911SC (Brian) gave some very good advice about not only looking at the car, but the owner as well. Some of the things he mentioned will tell volumes about the condition of the car even before the PPI.

Take your time and good luck, David

Ya know... This is a board that is mostly made up of guys that drive the snot out of their cars...

I'm sure your car is beautiful but 36k in 17 years???? 2000 miles a year??? Let's talk garage queen...:eek:

To be honest, I'd be a bit less likely to buy your car simply because it has sat so much. These cars need to be driven to keep seals etc. in good working order... sitting can cause several other problems with a 911. A low mileage 911 is not neccesarily a good buy...;)

I drive my car on weekends, very hard and very fast, I choose NOT to drive it daily because I don't really like the new 911s and I don't want to beat this one up.

So what if it is a garage queen, it leaks NO oil, and drives like a brand new 911.

And I wouldn't sell it to you anyway.

HOWEVER, you are correct to question low miles in an older car in that many sit up for months or years without even being cranked. Horrible things happen to these cars, but mine is not one of them.

The previous owner of my car drove it 9K miles in 10 years. It doesn't seem to have suffered at all. In fact I'm glad he saved it for me!

Howard

Have you tried reputable dealers?

I got my '86 from a dealer. I went and checked out his stock, and there was nothing that interested me. I explained what I was looking for and a couple of weeks later he emails me pictures of one he sourced.

Three years ago i bought it without history and without PPI (not suggesting you do that) and its still running great.

It might be another option for you.

Howard, if your budget is $19k, I'd recommend that you look for a $15-16k car and keep the rest of your money for initial / near term repairs / maintenance. Vetting used cars over the internet is a challenge, so I'd also suggest that you try to find a local Pelican to take an initial look at any car you're seriously considering. This might help weed out some of the less realistically advertised cars. If any of my comments were already posted by others on this thread, sorry for being redundant. Howard, best wishes on your car search!

Howard:
First off: I think they are charging you too much for a PPI! $600 + for three inspections? You shouldn't have to pay more than $50 to $150.00 MAX for a PPI.

Your best bet is to keep looking - look at and drive as many cars within your budget / needs / requirements that you can find. KNOW the car you want to buy - all the ins and outs. Search these forums & ask the questions.

After some time, you will be able to do a 'pre-PPI' yourself - you'll be able to eliminate the really bad ones, and then can focus on the good examples and spend your money getting a professional PPI on the ones that not only interest you, but also pass your pre-inspection.

I had a checklist that I used when I was searching for my Porsche. It is based on the 944 model, but with a little modifiction, you can use it to look for your 911 SC or Carrera. Send me a PM or email if you want a copy of it. (Credit: much of my checklist was derrived from an article I read in Excellence magazine a few years back).

BTW: It took me FOUR years of reading, research, test driving, forum browsing before I got my 944S2. It was worth the wait! Don't settle for 2nd best, and make sure your Porsche is the one that will best suit your needs!

Good luck!
-Z-man.

I would take some of the previous posters' advice - if your limit is $19k, I would look to spend perhaps $17k max - knowing that you may need to spend some money immediately to get the car close to your standards. Remember, you still have to pay sales tax on the car (assuming you buy it from a private party) - assuming that they do that in MD.

For $17k, I would focus on an early non-G50 Carrera. You should also figure out if you want a coupe or a targa to help narrow the search. Generally, coupes sell for maybe $1000 more than targas in similar condition - there is a bigger demand for coupes for track purposes.

I also had 3 failed PPIs before I found my current car. Hang in there and you will eventually find one. Also - while you may think you will get a better deal because it is winter, many people don't put their car on the market until early spring, so if you wait you may have a better selection next year.

All great information guys. I guess screening the owner is just as important as the car.

Most of the dealers around here deal only with used 996. There is one, Cherner Classics, that I contacted. Sometime they get trade in's or consignments. They did call me about a white Targa but the paint was shot.

Howard

ok, how about a reputable dealer further afield? the one i used was a 4-5 hour drive and overnight stay away. the great thing about the net is that they can email pictures before you go and check cars out.

if you use the right one it will make your search alot easier.

Here's a recent Autotrader search list
(85-89, under 100k miles, from $15-$19k, sorted by distance from Gaithersburg, MD zip code 20883):

http://www.autotrader.com/findacar/results.jtmpl?&model=911&body_style=&color=&max_mi leage=100000&doors=&engine=&fuel=&drive=&transmiss ion=&start_year=1985&end_year=1989&min_price=15000 &max_price=19000&distance=any&certified=n&advanced =&advcd_on=y&make=POR&address=20883&search_type=us ed&x=49&y=5&sort_type=distance