3.6 crate motor kit or rebuild the 3.2?
 

Just for grins I added up what I think I could sell the pile of parts that might make up my 3.2 short stroke. Low and behold, it would more than cover the cost of a prepped 3.6 crate motor and a front oil cooler setup.

My car is fairly sorted. I already have a good early mag 915. In order to finish my 3.2, I'm still looking at some machine work costs on my stacks & throttle bodies, some headwork, a cam modification, and a potential MFI pump R&R. Not to mention bearings, assembly kits, and the time to assemble the 3.2.

Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm looking for advice from the guys who have BTDT. Has anyone here built a hotrod 3.2, 3.4, or 3.5 instead of going the 3.6 route and later regretted it? Any of the 3.6 guys wish they have rebuilt their base engines instead of doing the swap? Is $15k enough of a budget for a DIY 3.6 swap and front oil cooler install on an otherwise sorted car these days?

TIA

A hot rod 3.6 is tough to beat no matter how you look at it.;)

A used 3.6 is more cost effective per HP.
Building your own hot rod motor is more satisfying.

Or you can do both: "Carrerasport" had a 3.6 with a bent valve(s) for sale for $3600 (w/DME and harness) the other day. I could have rebuilt that for $2-3K and had a rebuilt 3.6 for the price of a used 3.2. I get parts a little cheaper than you do but you get the idea.

-Chris

Yes, I hotrodded a 3.2L motor, and regretted it when the local shop had two 3.6L motors for $2,500 for sale. Of course, I don't know how much damage was doen when they blew their pistons or whatever was shredded on them...
And the 3.6 is harder to put in an earlier car.

Its not as straightforward of a swap as a 3.2 would be. Im looking at crate motors from Dr. Timmins so tht should make it easier.

I might suggest you find someone with at 3.6 (V-ram preferrably), even if it's in a heavy 993, and drive it. If the torque doesn't give you goose bumps then simply toss a coin. If it does, your decision is made.

One thing I like about the swap is that the engine was built by Porsche to their specs for reliability and performance. I'm sure there are good engine builders around, but for my money, factory reliability was a big draw. Your budget is close, especially if you have a motor, or motor parts to sell off.

Also please keep in mind as I alluded to earlier. Any stock 3.6 is in a very mild state of tune

a mild 250hp is still twice what I have on tap right now :D

3.6...hands down....Timmens is a good dude.......

3.6. They will transform your '72 Sepia into a BEAST.
The torque is astounding. Ya get the best of everything -

3.6 is awesome. I would not suggest putting one in unless you have plans for very good brakes and at the very least, 8" 225/ 9" 245 for tires.

Craig's car jumped 109 hp and 80 ft/# torque. You have to drive one off these cars at 2400lbs or less to appreciate it.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1090428609.jpg

It's a good thing someone figured out how to fit 8s under the rear of a narrow ass car :)

My brakes are from a '87 Carrera in the front, stock rear, with a fresh 19mm non boosted master cylinder and super blue. I wish they were boosted, but the car stops pretty good.

I should point out that in stock form the 3.6 is somewhat heavier. If it is converted to carbs and etc. then it is about the same wt. as the early 911 engines.

My spreadsheet (Engine tab) at rennlight.com has detailed and acurate wt. data for modifying a 3.2L to use carbs, SSI, etc.

Buy the flairs dude...you'll need them..trust me :)

It'll be a lot cheaper in the long run. 225s won't make 5K miles in that car with a 3.6. But no question you would have a grin on your face and smoke in the cabin most of the time.

I dont track my car, i have a 3.6 and my sc brakes work just fine, Kevin

"Has anyone here built a hotrod 3.2, 3.4, or 3.5 instead of going the 3.6 route and later regretted it?"

Maybe not regretted it..........but definitely went for a 3.6 changeover shortly after -

What's the ballpark price on a 3.6L "crate" motor?

From Dr. Timmins website:

~$13k for a '94 motor
~$14k for a '95 motor
~$16k for a '97 motor

I dont know how dated these prices are

I talked with Timmins last week. The prices listed are current.

~$13k for a '94 motor
~$14k for a '95 motor
~$16k for a '97 motor

"Has anyone here built a hotrod 3.2, 3.4, or 3.5 instead of going the 3.6 route and later regretted it?"

My rebuild was defined by the budget I was then willing to work with, $15K. The 3.6 was a 8/10K plus pop up front was a little heady for me going into a less than $10,000 car.

A year later and some time driving both my 3.4 and a light 3.6 from a 993 I am rethinking my build.

The prices can be a push. The level of performance from the later 3.6s isn't.

But there are so many good 911 engines available. That gets lost in the discussion at times I think.

3.6 varioram for me, and no regrets. Oh, and it's supposedly lighter than the 3.2 according to some sources. My car lost 20-30lbs with the change from a 3.2 to 3.6, but is likely attributable to the lightened flywheel and no heat heaters (ssi's previously).

For the same money as the entire transplant, I could have had my 3.2 completely rebuilt, and not much better than new. It was an easy decision for me to go with the 3.6 once the 3.2 got tired. Timmins kit make it very cost effective!

3.6....no other option....

$7850-9950 from Timmins' website.

http://www.instant-g.com/Products/EnginesForSale/index.html

These were prices for motors he had available in 2003. The best thing would be to contact him to see what he had available now and for how much. Post your results back here if you do. I'm kinda curious as I'd like to do this at some point in the future.

the one thing not yet mentioned is that if you build out your 3.2, you have a "known quantity". Should be good for 100K+ unless you build something really nuts. If you buy a crate 3.6, you really don't know the condition of the valve guides, etc. Could go 60K miles. Or not.

The engines Timmins currently has..as of last week any way were all in the "40K mile range". The crated numbers he has listed are correct and up to date.

The "old" and "new" engine is a concern voiced by the full time guys I have talked to about installing one of the crate engines.

If it lasts forever then you never have a good excuse to add the turbo.....:)

The 'known quantity' factor is legitimate. Most of the 3.6 conversions I have seen documented here have turned out well. Maybe a little over budget, but they still have worked out well overall. I remember a few that have been nightmarish (full rebuilds needed after the swap) and I'll do my best to learn from those experiences and avoid a similar situation.

Mileage, maintenance, and oil changes can be documented. The thing that worries me the most is getting a motor that has been overreved. I don’t know how you document that. Maybe broken rockers or valve springs on the intial inspection? :confused:

Granted that Dr. Timmins doesn’t know what happened to a motor before he owned it, but at least he has a reputation as an honest person and his crate motors have been run and checked out before they come out of his cars. Im a big fan of the 'buy the seller' theory when it comes to stuff like this and Timmins has a great rep and a lot of satisfied customers.

I’ve read that LA Porsche offers a 6 month warranty on their motors. I’ve read old threads where people have used them and been happy with the service. This is nice.

Of course, a documented motor like Craig's or the freshly rebuilt '97 v-ram from a reputable shop like the one on the for sale forum would be ideal.

Sherman, why not build your 3.2 up with a turbo kit?

Anyone know the cost/hp/weight/difficulty differential versus going 3.6? or against a factory 3.3 turbo?

My 3.2 will need a rebuild/sway someday, I'm still amazed it runs as hard as it does with 238K on it, but it's days have to be numbered.

Nothing against turbos, but thats not an option for me. Going turbo on the 3.2 would involve a piston change and a lot more sorting than building my 3.2 MFI dream motor. Id also need to change the rear of my car (tail,flares) to run a turbo. The 3.6 is almost plug and play in my car.

Steve Timmins is a great guy and you can't go wrong with his conversion kits. They are complete and he will stand behind the whole conversion with tech support.
I did my through him and was not unhappy.

I have one in mine....he's a little slow once he has your depeosit...but he supposedly runs the converted motor in HIS car to sort out details...so THAT could be the lagtime.

He does NOT supply a smog legal motor for CA. It is up to YOU to get the exhaust system that is needed.

Z, did you use a 993 or a 964 motor? I know you have a G50, but I don’t remember the details of your swap. Maybe it’s new, but I saw on his site that he can deliver an exhaust with the crate motors (the 993 motor having more limited exhaust choices). I don’t have to deal with the emission tests here since my car was built before '80.

It's in an SC and it has a 915....been two years now since the install....

I started out looking for a 3.2 foir my SC to modify and rebuild. In the end I bought a 3.6 and it's a blast. The car now feels the way I always thought it should. Do your research first though. Things like exhaust really add up quick as do the multiple oil coolers. One fender unit will not cut it.


Jeff

One tidbit -- Steve Timmins is a professor (at U. Del. I think) with joint appointments. So he isn't doing this as his sole source of income, perhaps as a labor of love. On the downside, if gets busy with research, that could mean a delay if he doesn't have others working with or for him. Myunderstanding is that he has the conversion all figured out and it is about as turnkey as it can be. If I lived near TRE or another shop that had done it before, I might just go thru them. At minimum, I'd talk to them and ask if they wanted to do part or all of the "Timmons kit" install, etc.

The biggest challenge I have with these cars in general is that there is no TRE, Supertec, or Rennsport type of shop within a days drive from here. If I lived within 1000 miles of Timmins, TRE, Rennsport, or Henry's shop I would bring the car to them and stop bugging you guys. There are three local mechanics outside of the dealership here that I would trust with an oil change, other than that, my only hope is DIY and this board.

I'm headed for a 3.6 too
 

Sherman,
I've been following your posts and have done a lot of the same research. Emailed Dr Timmons who said doing the 993 install yourself isn't bad and he supplies all templates for tin mods and all the tech support you will need. I'm looking more towards a low mileage v ram from Cal porsche recyclers and doing my own install with Dr. Steve's kit. I'd like to have the chips upgraded though and I don't know if they're plug and play or need to be dyno tuned. If it takes dyno time, I'm screwed cause I haven't found one around our area. Plenty of dirt track floggers but no Porsche techs. The Louisiana Porsche dyno famine!! One way or another, it's gonna be 993 time this year. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Mike (Soon to be penniless)
'86 Carrera Targa

Mike, wheatdog, just sent you a PM