Why 914's are not faster than 911's
 

The Porsche 914 is considerably lighter than a 911. Their wheel base is both longer and wider than that of a 911. The 914 rear suspension is coil-over. Its engine is just in front of the rear axle. It is considerably lower than a 911. It has two trunks, one of which is roomier than the 911 trunk. Of course, this does not make it go faster but hey, it's got two trunks. The only thing it seems to be missing is the back seats we never use.

So, why wouldn't a six-cylinder 914 smoke a 911 at the track?

only the rear is coilover suspension, the front is torsion bar.

I don't think so. Of course, the driver is by far the most important variable, but no, I think 914's do not generally clobber 911's for some reason. But it looks to me like they should. If they did, then lots of guys would be tracking 914's and they'd be a little more valuable than they are.

OK I will say it,

because the most developed cars are 911s, there are a few 914s that are as developed as some of the 911s, but generally the big $$ are spent on the 911s, cause they are just cooler, and have tradition behind them.

Jim

BTW, I was chatting with a friend recently (Dave, the Triad guy) and he told of a 914 with a trick Chevy V8 that had tons of torque. LOTS more power than Dave's 914. Dave smoked that car handily at AX. Why? With the V8 engine, its center of gravity was substantially higher, and it just could not handle well. Porsche knew what it was doing.

Out here, it's common to see the fast 914-6's infront of the 911's. These guys are running 2.5's. However, there are a couple 2.0's (Vintage911Racer being one of them) that can hang with the 2.5 liter cars.

I know about the autocross prowess of the 914. On an autocross track, they are bullies.

DaveB and Grady both drive a 914-6. I dont think too many people would smoke them. In the recent Milt Minter thread he was in a 914-6 also. I wonder how often he got smoked at the track. The guys who really know and race these cars a lot all seem to have considerable experience behind the wheel of a 914-6.

One reason might be that, due to serious rust problems in structural areas, it's hard to find a really good 914 tub, and it takes a lot of time and money to bring one back.

I wonder how those 2 (or 3) one-off 914-8s would fair on the track. I'd suppose not too well.

(Yes I'm talking to myself)

Rick,
A friend of mine, Brian has one of these 914-8s. It is very developed and sorted, everything is Nascar quality. I've been on Pocono in one of my 911s while he was out there. I can tell you that this car is a trip and very fast, looks like it handles very well too.

I'll try to dig up the pictures I took of it.

Thats how my maddness started. I needed to rebuild the motor on my 73 914 and decided to buy a 2.7 core. Then I bought a 84 carrera suspension. I decided that I would never get my $$$ back with all the things I planned on doing to it so I bought a rust free 73T for 6000.00 and put the parts on this car. Too much $$$ to put into a 914 with 1/3 less results.

Coz, We may be thinking of different cars. The ones I'm referring to are the 2 or 3 Porsche hand-made units, one of which was given to the the Dr himself. When one of these cars made it here to the states the guy from Automobile Atlanta (?Dave?) looked it over and stated that the factory "conversion" looked to be done by high school kids. He specifically pointed out the poor welds and sloppy cutting. This tells me it was more novelty and not product evolution. I'd bet the car made it to a track or two.

Stock to Stock, a 914 only has 110 hp I believe from it's stock 2.0 litre motor. Any 70 or later 911 had much better power to wt ratios I believe.

I agree with the above that 914's are hard to find rust free and are as expensive as 911's to bring back to life for track purposes. Once brought back you can kiss your money good buy faster than you would with a 911.

The V-8 conversions IMO are awesome. I know Scott personally of Rennegade Hybrids in Las Vegas and let me tell you, just watching one of these things is an awesome site to see when they are sorted out properly.

There is a nice 914-6 for sale near me that is simply an awesome car. Just rebuilt motor and trans to 2.4 E spec, all new suspension and brakes. Very well sorted and all orig. paint on 110K miles I believe. The is asking high and firm at 25K, but it is an awesome ride.

For the money, my 914-4 has put to shame many a 911 on the track. And I see them get out, look at their car, then look at mine, and curse away. I literally heard one "loser" say "I can't believe that piece of crap just beat me"

Rick,
Ahhh! Something in me just thinks of this monster whenever the numbers 914 and 8 are associated... my friend found some pics... purists beware:)http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104270594.jpg

Give the 914 an equivalent power to weight ratio to the 911 in question with suitable rubber, add a good driver and you have a 911 beater, no problem. In fact, when the fine folks at Fabcar wanted to make a faster 911, the first thing they did was make a 914 out of it (at least as far as the engine orientation went).

Edit: OK, I know that you can't see what I wanted to point out in these pics, but this is one of only two "mid-engine 911's" built by Fabcar. It worked _very_ well.

Chris

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104270722.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104270745.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104270761.jpg

Coz, That car is tits in my book. How wide are those wheels!?

Rick,
Actually, not sure. Have to be 13"s. Up close the car is really incredible.

I have both a developed 914/6 and a developed 911. The 914 has 3.2, the 911 a 2.2, they are made for different classes. I do know when Im driving my 914 on open track days. I do pass many 911's

When I drive my 911 I pass many 911's also :p

Obviously it's >80% the driver. I'm not a very good one, but used to regularly pass 911's and various other cars in my previous 914/4 particularly at tight technical tracks like Streets of Willow.

Numerous TTOD's at the POC Short Track Series for many years have gone to Otto's monster widebody 914-6 3.8RSR "Rudy". Sometimes the next closest time is a few seconds back...in a ~70 second lap time, that's A LOT!

Personally I like 914's cuz they are a helluva lot of fun to drive. :D

I usually go to Road America for the Vintage races every year and there is always a 914-6 in front or in the top 3 with the 911's.

I took these a while back when I was going to do my 914-6 conversion. Then I backed out. Great looking car. I forgot who ownes it.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104292626.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104292642.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104292663.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104292681.jpg

Believe that to be one Ken (Kenny) Rumbaugh from San Diego.

>>Don't six-cylinder 914s smoke 911s at tracks all the time all around the country?<<

Yes they do!

Speaking from experience. I race a short wheelbase 911S. I race against many 914-6's. If the driver of the 914 is up to the task. Any 914-6 race car that is well prepared will beat an equally preapred 911. No doubt about it. However, it all depends on the driver.

We had about 6-8 914-6 running with us at any given time. We also had about 15 911's racing... Usually, 914's were scattered throughout the top 5 or 6 finishing positions with myself and one other 911 thrown in there somewhere.

Not only do they have the advantage of a longer wheelbase and wider track, they also have the advantage of handling like a go kart. They are easier on tires then us 911 drivers. The 914's are so nuetrally balanced it is unbeleivable.

I am a former 914 owner, a GT look type 4 turbo, it was a fast car for a 4. I now have a 77 911S.

I have been in and driven lots of fast 914's; 4's, 6's and the blue and yellow V8 car that Imcoz posted.

You may not wanna hear it or believe it, but a 914-6 can and will run circles around alot of 911's on the track.

A 3.2 or 3.6 coversion car is fast as hell. Set up the suspension and tire combo right and they stick like glue.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!!;^)

Ed

It's the NARP syndrome that kills it....Not A Real Porsche....prices are coming up on stockers....914/6s can get 30K+ and are a kick to drive. 4 bangers are relatively easy...kinda...to convert to 911 power....

Also they are now smog exempt except for the 76 models in CA.

Handling-wise, my 914 blows my 911's away. It drives like an over-sized go-cart. It's not stock, as it's got flares (factory steel), Carrera front end, 914-6 rear brakes, and 7&8 inch Fuchs, BUT I'd say that all puts it on par with a 911 in terms of equipment. If it had a six in it, there'd be no comparison.

I purchased a 914 6 conversion track car a few years ago that had all the necessary modifications done to it in regards to, body stiffening and reinforcement, suspension, LSD transmission with short gears, and 951 bakes. I converted it back to a street car and I put a 79 sc 3.0 engine in it and installed a turbocharger last spring, I have added a new k27 to it already this winter, and will have completed my car project this Spring with body and paint. I dont even think about the money spent on it as resale was not a factor as was a great handling fast car that is unique and special to me. If I hold on to it long enough maybe it will have resale value equal to what I have into it. I have no doubt that this car would hold its own on the track next to 911's and newer.
If you go out to the PCA race results you will see a lot of 914 6's in the top finishes or winner even against the newest Porsches.
So I think it's fair to say they are very capable cars when one puts the time and money into them.

Since I like both the 911 and the 914, I will probably own another 911 when I have a bigger garage.

I was once told by a driving instructor that 10 out of 10 drivers are fast in a 914. But only 1 out of 10 are fast in a 911.

I agree, a 914 is easier to drive at the limit because of the outstanding balance. In total stock form that limit isn't very high but it doesn't take that much to get it better. It isn't that tough to make a 914 fast but it does take some modifications and money. They are fun to drive even if they aren't modified. The basic design of the 914 is performance bred, that's one of the reasons they can be made fast without too much trouble.
My first 914 was a completely stock 1971 with a 1.7 liter engine and no sway bars. I drive it all through college and loved every minute of it.

A 911 is tougher to drive at the limit because it takes a much different technque, one that isn't natural to some of us. But isn't that some of the charm?
A 911 can be less forgiving, but can also be very rewarding when you get it right, even in stock trim.
Both are good cars, both are fun to drive, but when stock they are much different, when equally modified they are still different.

One thing that we might want to remember is that not all 911s are the same either. Some were much faster and better handling than others when stock, but there are not enough 911SC's to go around so the other 911 owners had to settle ;)
Long live the SCWDP!

Hey, have you guys missed the last 40 years or so? There’s this trend toward placing the engine in the middle of the car for better balance. I can’t think of too many dedicated modern race cars that are front or rear engined. Put identical engines in the back of a 911 and the middle of a 914 and I betcha the 914 will win at the track.

More perplexing, though, is why the Boxster falls short at the track. Everything above notwithstanding, they don’t seem to be able to keep up with the 911’s or 914’s. What’s wrong there?

The Boxster falls short because it is difficult to heel and toe with panty hose and ballet slippers...

I think they are about 1000lbs overweight.

Yup....hard to get into "one size fits all" panty hose with that much flab.....

Sam, i really like your posts, but i don't fully agree with the 911 winning with an equal HP engine, weigh ratio, and suspension. As Howard pointed out, mid engine is key. But we also need to take into consideration that not all mid engine cars are created equal. The body surrounding them will determine how they will react during speed.

The McLaren F1 is mid engine and has been clocked by two german auto enthusiest doing over 230mph. The two 3.2 GT flared 914's i've driven get light at 110-120mph, and by 130mph it dawns on you that this is a really bad idea. 911's are more stable at higher speeds. Given the 914 has better aerodynamics (splitters, belly tray (ground effects), and a suitable wing, you can easiely advance to higher speeds.

Also consider not only the drivers, but the gear ratios for those "equal hp engines" is huge too. Where the engine makes its power and the gearing to match that power is more often overlooked. As you said earlier sammy "apples to oranges". has alot of validity. But if we make the engine power the same and gearing appoarpiate, weight ratios (add weigh to the lighter vehicle), comperable suspension components, the 914 would not get spanked by the 911.

History, the first 356 was mid engine, the 550, 904, 906, 908, 910, 914, 916, 917, 952, 962, GT1, and many others i don't know. Point? Mid has had an extensive role in the Porsche lineup. The 914 was killed for numerious reasons already listed, but one of the main reasons why the 914 isn't as competitive in most of the club scenes is because the point cost to get a /4 cylinder to /6 cylinder class specs. Plus the components given to the 914/6's were pretty lame.

The boxster would be a killer if you could get the weight down to a reasonable level and get the power up to 996 range, it has been done. I've seen a couple boxsters out there that were reeeaaaally impressive on the track. Unfortunately they did not keep up with the factory-built 911 race cars on the same track (Calif. Festival of speed, Fontana).

Howard, I can think of one purpose built race car that is extremely sucessful and is rear engined, the GT-3RS. Totally dominates GT class, wins Le Mans in GT every year, kicks butt in American le Mans series GT and Grand Am. Beats mid engined Ferraris and everything else in that class.
It is so dominating that very few other cars even try to compete with it any more. The big question isn't which kind of car will win GT, but which GT-3 will win.
Over the past 40 years the 911 in one form or another has won more races that any one of us can begin to count, even though the engine was in the wrong place!
The 911 has been described as a bad idea engineered to perfection. I agree with that.
Maybe the 914 was a good idea that was not engineered or developed to the level it deserved?

About the only thing I hate about the 914 design when it comes to racing is the fact that the targa top design creates quite a bit of chassis flex unless you install a full cage.
The top is cool for the street, but not for racing.
I watched a video of a 914 at an AX a while ago. Maybe you've seen it, light blue 914, doing very well until it spun out near the end of the lap. The video was taken from an in-car camera mounted in the center right in front of the targa bar. In the video you could watch the car flex at every corner. The windshield wipers were shifting back and forth at least 1/2" in the video frame, maybe more.
Compared to the stock 914 chassis, the 911 coupe chassis is solid as a rock. Not really a fair comparison because the 911 targa flexes more than the coupe also, but they didn't offer the 914 in a coupe.

Sammy, hope you know I'm just having fun with this, but here goes. It would be foolhardy to argue with the 911's record, but as Carrol Shelby said about the 427 Cobra.. 'You can't make a race car out of a pig, but you can make a mighty fast pig'.

The 914, like the Boxster, could have been developed to be the best track Porsche because the mid engine configuration is superior for racing applications. It would have been, and still would be, foolhardy for Porsche to do this and shoot themselves (911) in the foot.

Kind of like the argument for liquid cooled versus air cooled. There is elegance and tradition in air cooled Porsches. Their light weight and simplicity did make them the giant killers of their day. But time marches on, and all I'm saying is that if you are going to build a super car today, it better be liquid cooled and mid engined.

If that's the case, I better get another 914. Why work any harder than you have to for TTOD? Whatever brings home the chrome.