Legal advice needed. Stolen 911? Long

[midlife]

OK,
Here is the story:
I purchased a non-running 911 from someone without a title. The last tags on it were 1994, and he had a Sheriff’s Dept. printout showing the name of the last registered owner in another city. I was not too worried, because I figured if the vehicle were stolen, someone would have reported it in the last 10 years, and chances were that it had fallen off the DMV records anyway. Also if I could not get a title, I could always part out the car, (something I was contemplating anyway.)
I paid for the car, and had it towed away. The next day, I checked with the DMV, and the title is still active, (but not current), and in the name of the person on the Sheriff’s report. Apparently if there have been inquiries on a title, it stays active longer. Also I discovered that the title was salvage.
I looked up the PO’s number on the internet, and gave him a call. I asked if he once owned a 911, and he was outraged. He said he still owned the car and had the pink slip.
Here is the story I was able to put together from the PO, and the person I bought it from.

The car was in an accident. The PO gave the car to his friend to fix up and sell with the agreement that they would split the money. The friend gave the car to his stepson who works at body shop to fix. The stepson fixed and painted the car, then eventually sold it to the person I bought it from. This all happened over a period of several years.

The PO was going on about how the car was stolen, he is calling the Sheriff, and he wants people to go to jail. The next call he said he did not care about the money, and did not want the car back, but that he wanted his friends stepson to be punished by going to jail. Yesterday when I called for an update, he said now he wants the car back to give to a nephew, and still wants people to go to jail. This has been going on for a couple of months. The PO has my name and number, but the only time we speak is when I call him. I have not been contacted by any law enforcement.


Was the car stolen? The way I see it, there was a business agreement between the PO and his friend, and every part of the agreement was upheld except for the friend did not pay the PO his half of the proceeds from the sale of the car.

This has been dragging out too long. I need to do something. What are my options without getting in trouble? Can I just part out the car so all the evidence is gone? Can I sell it whole? Will the Sheriff even care about this, or will they consider it a matter for small claims court?

Thanks

[dweymer]

If you unknowingly bought stolen property it will be given back to the rightful owner. Your recourse would be to sue whomever you bought it from. If you part it out knowing it's stolen, I'm pretty sure you will go to jail, being a chop shop instead of innocent buyer. The aggreement to split money or whatever is someone else's issue; the tittle was never transferred.

[asphaltgambler]

I think the real question here is not if it was 'stolen' but are you the legal owner now?? I think not. From experience, (yes bad) I can tell you that in most states with-out the title, in your hand and at least released (signed off) you own nothing.

You can have a vehicle with great market value, but unless you have the required title/paperwork proving it's your car by legal definition, you have no claim to it as the rightfull owner. A bill of sale is meaningless unless the car was registered in a state that only does 'bill-of-sale' as proof of ownership.

The rightfull owner will be the person's name on the title, unless they have signed off their interest. The car itself is almost immaterial. Since the guy filed a police report , he may be right depending upon how it was filed, the exact wording and time elasped.

I don't envy you here. I bought a car to use for racing a long time ago w/o the title, just a bill of sale. The 'real' owner tracked the car down to me after I had put considerable time and effort into it. Turns out, long story.... he was the legal owner and there was nothing I could do or re-coup my time and money. He just loaded the car up left.

Now that's the first thing I ask when looking at a vehicle.

[midlife]

Interesting. I often see track or parts cars offered without a title. I guess they are at risk of being claimed.

[Grady Clay]

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice but I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express recently.

If I had bought a tub and put all my nice parts on it and then found myself in the situation you describe, the first thing I would do is take all my nice parts back off.

Did you get a bill-of-sale from the person you paid?
Do you have any other paperwork?
Have you confirmed he has a valid title to the 911?

It looks like you own a 911 that someone else still has title to. Your best solution (although possibly expensive) is to negotiate a settlement with the title holder and get a good free and clear title. You can always go after the person who “sold” it to you for that amount.

You also can go to court (small claims?) and ask for the seller to deliver valid title.

The title holder seems to be very upset with the people who “sold” his 911 to you. Perhaps he will give you the title for $1 if you agree to be his witness in a civil claim (likely) or criminal proceedings (very unlikely) against them.

Whatever, do it correctly. Don’t sell it to someone else with just a bill of sale. If improperly done; it will come back to haunt everyone in the chain of “ownership.”

A word of advice for everyone:
Don’t ever buy a car without a title or the clear ability to get one.

Yes you can buy a car with just a bill of sale and then get a Title Bond from your insurance company and finally get a new title. If it turns out someone still has valid title, the bond pays them and the insurance company comes to you for payment.

Part of any transaction should be checking the VIN through the National Crime Information Center (NCIC). Any law enforcement office will do this for you for free. They can check engine and transmission numbers also.

All this shows the value of provenance. The history of the car counts – even if it is just the title trail.

2c

Best,
Grady

[midlife]

Did you get a bill-of-sale from the person you paid?
Do you have any other paperwork?
Have you confirmed he has a valid title to the 911?

Grady,
I did get a bill of sale, (just a hand written one), but no other paperwork.
The PO is listed at the DMW as the registered owner, so even if he does not physically have the title, he can get one for $9.00.

[asphaltgambler]

Again, a bill of sale has no legal meaning even if it were written with blood on biblical parchment.

After my sad case, I wouldn't buy any vehicle w/o a title, even if it was to be a parts/donor car. In Va. if you take a car to be scrapped you'd better have the title to fork over to the recycle yard or they will not accept it.

[randywebb]

I am not acting as your attorney and this is not legal advice but I usually camp out because I am cheap and hate motels anyway....

THis sounds like an instance of illegal conversion, which is a tort, not a crime. The owner (O) let someone (A) hold his car for him but instead A sold it. The question is whether the agreement to sell and split changes it from a tort to just a contract violation. Did you get the car from A? or from someone else? In any event O might be able to sue for you to give the car back to him. You might be able to make him pay you for storing the car tho.

Unlikely that the sheriff will act on this (surely they have something better to do with their time anyway).

Bottom line - Write down carefully every FACT about this and how you know that fact. Add the papers you have on the deal. Then go see an attorney.

Otherwise, take the risk that O sues your ass. You would then sue the guy who sold the car to you. Everybody else in the chain of custody for the vehicle will then sue everybody else and you can all sort it out in court. Sounds like great fun....

And... how much is the car worth anyway? It might go to csmall claims court in some states (lawyers not allowed to represent the litigants).

I would be sure the PO (guy who sold it to you) transfers the title to you right away - assuming you want to keep the car. tell O to write you, not to call you on the phone. That will do two fine things: 1. slow him down and cut the rant index a bit, and 2. create a paper trail of what is going down right now. You can offer to sell the car back to him for what you paid + storage charges if you want - not sure if that's a good idea or not. NOTE: you don't know if O is right or wrong about owning the car; you did a good faith deal with A. That is your bottom line.

On another post, somebody said all 911s have a history (re Sharon Tate murders) .... sounds like the term all was a correct one.

Good luck.

[Grady Clay]

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice but I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express recently.

Well, I would go find a friend who is an attorney practicing in California. You can do most of the leg-work. I think you can get a copy of all the title information. I have found that most California DMV people are very forthcoming with directions to solve most title problems. What is California law about a “Mechanic’s Lien”? This might apply for your work on the car or engine.

Start yourself a file.
Do you have photos of the 911 when you got it?
Do you have receipts for parts?
Can you reconstruct your labor?
Record your written notes of every conversation.
Keep track of you time spent dealing with this.

All this PITA could have been avoided but now has to be dealt with.


Let’s take a hypothetical:

Someone buys a rust free, no damage, ‘72S chassis only with a bill of sale. It gets refurbished as a really cool 2.7RS. Show condition, like new. Suddenly the title holder shows up (with Sheriff) and can legally cart the car off – he owns it. This can happen after many owner transfers. This is not a situation to be in.

More 2c

Best,
Grady

PS, how does he get a replacement California title for only $9 when I had to pay $15 two weeks ago? I have an original paint ’72 Datsun 510 that has been resting quietly in my mom’s carport in North Berkeley Hills since ‘86. Somehow in 20 years I misplaced the title. Ten minutes AND $15, I got a replacement.
G.

[midlife]

Thanks guys for the "advice".

To use Randy's terminology:

O gave the car to A to fix up and sell. A claims to have spent $800.00
A gave the car to B to do bodywork.
B did bodywork and paint, and sold to C. I think for around $2,300.00
C stored the car and did a little work.
C sells the car to D (me) for $2,500.00

The amount off money is not huge. It would however wipe out my P-car budget for a long time to come if I lose it.

So it looks like A owes O $1,150.00
B owes A $2,300.00 minus the work performed ($800.00?)

I think lawyers may cost more money than this is worth.
I was recently involved in a patent infringement lawsuit that was settled at the last minute in our favor for a very large sum of money. Unfortunately the attorney's fees were an even larger sum of money.

[porschenut]

I'm a CPA and I've had enough business and property law training that this is a slam dunk. First off, the the first owner wilfully handed the car and the keys to his friend for fixing up, selling, then dividing the proceeds. He fulfilled his duty to the contract at that point, and the car was indeed fixed up and sold in accordance with the contract provisions. The only provision in the contract that was breached is the part about paying the owner. He can and should sue his friend and his friend's stepson for breach of contract. That's it. The friend's failure to pay the first owner does NOT constitute theft of property.

The agreement stipulates that the friend/stepson was to sell the car, which constitutes authorization on the part of the owner for the friend/stepson to act as his agent in selling the car. Therefore, the stepson LEGALLY sold the car to the guy you bought it from. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whose name is on the title document or who the DMV thinks it is registered to. Title to any piece of property is transferred upon receipt of consideration (money in this case) from the buyer, NOT when the document is updated or reissued. It just so happens that in this case, title to the car transferred twice without informing the DMV issuing a new title document. It does NOT matter. YOU own the car now, perfectly legally, and the first owner has NO RECOURSE against you or the guy you bought it from (who is, in fact, the PO. That is, he is previous to you).

There is widespread misconception about what the word "title" means. A title is NOT a piece of paper. "Title" means, literally, OWNERSHIP. The piece of paper that everyone likes to call "the title" is actually called a "title document", which constitutes EVIDENCE of title (not proof).

Another very important piece of evidence of title is your bill of sale. Someone above tried to tell you the bill of sale is meaningless; he could not be more wrong. A bill of sale is a CONTRACT that supports your claim to title of the car. If this thing goes to court, that bill of sale will show that you own the car and that is was lawfully purchased from the previous owner. The previous owner, for his part, should have a bill of sale proving he bought it from the stepson. If he doesn't, then he can present a cancelled check, bring a witness who can substantiate the validity of the purchase contract, etc. There's always evidence. The court does not require that you have a DMV-issued title document to prove ownership. It's a concept known throughout the legal world as "substance over form".

[midlife]

Regarding a mechanics lien, I think A or B could claim that against O, but I don't think I could claim that, since O did not ask me to do any work. Asphaltgambler could have had some claim for his work if this were the case.

And Grady, I guess the duplicate title fees have gone up since the last time I got one.

[biosurfer1]

you're in california, i'm not sure about other states but according to my uncle(lawyer), you can add laywers fees into the suit if it was neglect on the defendants part...i'm sure there has to be a laywer or two around, and they will correct me if i'm wrong...hope it works out

[midlife]

Wow thanks Dave,
That makes me feel alot better.

[Grady Clay]

I agree with what Dave and Randy posted. Considering the amount of money, if the title holder doesn’t just give you the title, small claims court may be your best bet. If you get a decision in your favor, I think the court can order DMV to issue you a title.

I’m sure there are “How To” books for Small Claims Court. All of the statutes are available on line, sometimes even the case law. The important issue is to show up with overwhelming evidence and witnesses as appropriate.

Go poll your friends who are attorneys. If they don’t have to do any work, many will give pro-bono (free) advice and keep you pointed in the right direction.

I am not an attorney and this is not legal advice but I stayed in a Holliday Inn Express recently. Of course Randy and I (even in my lame old age) would much rather camp in the high country than use a motel.

Best,
Grady

[Jay Auskin]

Hey midlife, sounds like an "intersting" purchase.

I don't think I saw this discussed anywhere, but did "O" ever report this car as being stolen in the last 10 years (aside from now...if "O" even did that)??

If "O" didn't report it stolen, could he do that now, and have any basis for his claim??

I don't know if this means anything in your favor, since as you might guess---I'm not a lawyer....I don't even watch Law and Order.

[midlife]

Hi Jay,
Yes, I've had a few interesting purchases, and car adventures, but this is the first "legal issue" one. There was the Jaguar the kids and I drove around in reverse because forward did not work, and the '53 Ford F100 that a bunch of kids helped push and steer around the block when the school principal drove by. But I digress.
The original owner did not report the car stolen. I do not know if he has even now. I don't know if there is some statutes of limitations.

[DavidI]

midlife, I am going to try to summarize your scenario. The original deal between the Original Owner and his friend was a business agreement to repair the car and sell it splitting the proceeds. The friend, through his stepson, fixed and sold the car. The Original Owner was not given the money for the car. This amounts to a weak case of Embezzlement by the friend to the Original Owner. Depending on the facts of the case, it could also be simply a business dispute to be settled in Civil Court.

The car can be "stored" as evidence used in a crime if the law enforcement investigator deems so. After the case is resolved, the car would be in litigation as to who the new owner is. I would think with your valid receipts and proof of bill of sale, it would be awarded to you.

Good luck, David

[copper]

Sounds like a civil matter. I'd be shocked if anybody in law enforcement tried to force your hand to turn the car over given the facts you have outlined.

The car was clearly not stolen. The fact that it was not reported as such for the last 10 years supports this. The PO entered into a civil arrangement with a friend, with clear instructions for him to sell it. What the friend does at that point is up to him. Any subsequent recourse for the PO as a result of actions after that could only be taken against the friend he initially made the agreement with.

The PO does not appear to have a leg to stand on criminally. Civilly, yes, against the friend, however only for the value of the vehicle as it was at the time it was turned over to him for resale, and not based on the work done since.

For the PO to get the car back now, he would be gaining more car than he initially gave to his friend from the sounds of it. The fact that you paid money for the car in its current state gives you a solid interest in the vehicle.

If you paid FAR less than it is worth without asking questions as to why, many jurisdictions have presumptions in law about possession of stolen property and the purchase of such items. For instance, were you to buy a new TV for $20 from some guy on the street, knowing the TV was worth much more, then the courts can presume that you most likely knew the item was stolen. Not sure if this applies to your situation.

What about the ownership papers? Who has them? Were they signed over? Again, not sure how this works where you are, but here, we have ownership papers that need to be signed by the owner and surrendered to the DMV for re-registration and new title. If the guy you bought the car from had the papers and turned them over to you, this further supports the civil standing of this case between the PO and his friend. Here, anyone who purchases a vehicle has 6 days to register it with the DMV, roadworthy or not. Otherwise there are penalties.

"Porschenut" is on the money with his summation of this case. The PO has no case against you as you had no dealings with him, and were it not for your call, he would have had no clue in the first place.

I do however think you may have jumped too soon at this, and created some headache for yourself, with your gut getting the better of you, causing you to call the PO and add to the headache. If you go to buy something and have to question yourself as to whether it is stolen, it's probably a good thing to stay away from. The fact that you figured even if it were it would have "fallen off the DMV records" causes concern also. Looks like you found a basket of snakes and kicked it over...

BIG QUESTION:
You paid $2500. How much would the car actually be worth with a proper title and clear documentation?

Good Luck
Jim

P.S. Next time buy one from a Pelican.

[randywebb]

Jay hit on another little item in this - the statute of limitations (there might also be a statute of repose... and other gunk). Let's say the statue limits law suits to 6 years -- well, it's 4 years too late...

I offer this as just another reason to see a lawyer. State's laws differ - one thing that makes the US so crazy.

Or you can take the risk and see what happens...

You could try talking to someone at the DMV, but relying on the word of a govt. employee will not save you (legally).

Good luck.