ubiquity0

The suspension on both cars is the exact same. Bone stock except that both have new Bilstein Sports front/rear installed.

Same torsion bar diameters, same sway bar diameters, same stock bushings, same stock tie rod ends (no turbo tie rods), same stock upper strut mounts, etc...

There is zero difference in the suspension.

Both cars have been aligned. The alignment is probably not the exact same though.

I don't remember the specs, but both have a little more camber front/rear over stock specs. Toe/caster on both are in the stock spec range.

Both cars are about at the same ride height.

Neither is corner balanced (mine used to be until I played with the ride height).

TonyG

Tony, Are you sure about these weights? What did you use to weigh the car?

The reason I ask is because my old '82 SC coupe, w/ identical weight-loss deletions other than it had CIS, (which weighs maybe 15 lbs., not 150), weighed ~2615 w/ a half tank. We weighed it at TRE w/ the corner balancing scales/system, which is accurate to the pound. (You could put sandwich on the roof and the scale will change). My motor was fresh w/ SSIs and mild upgrade cams, (Elgin SC330s), never dynoed it but I'm guessing maybe 200 HP total, not RWHP. Not doubting you, just didn't know that carbs gave that much on that motor.

The '84 ROW should actually be lighter than the SC w/ same equipment, you didn't say whether the SC has a sunroof. At any rate, the cars did seem to somehow get more "refined", and heavier-feeling as they went along, but not really from the '83 SC to the '84 Carrera. It was an identical car other than more power and torque, plus better oil cooling. :cool:

speeder

The SC has a sunroof.

The scale used to weight the car is a truck scale. It is CHP certified and accurate to within 20lbs. At least this is what I was told. Do I know for a fact that it's accurate? No. But that's where the trucks come into get weighed and get their weight certificates, and that's where I had the car weighed.

http://www.tonygarcia.org/911SC/weig...feb01_2005.jpg


The HP quoted was measured on a DynoJet at DC Motorsports in Los Angeles. It is an SAE Corrected measurement.

This was with the carbs out-of-the-box as shipped.

Since then I've gone to ITG air filters, tall velocity stacks, and more ignition timing, and played with the jetting.

The car is much stonger now in the midrange for sure (over what it felt like in the below dyno)

I'll be going to get the car re-dynoed soon. Here's the dyno chart below of the out-of-the-box setup

http://www.tonygarcia.org/911SC/tony...911sc_dyno.gif

And a couple of rough comparisions:



http://www.tonygarcia.org/dyno911SC1.gif

http://www.tonygarcia.org/dyno911SC2.gif



TonyG

Speeder, I coulda swore that our cars are timed at 5 degrees BEFORE TDC, but at any rate, "five degrees" is correct according to my recollection. But what surprizes me is that your full advance is still nearly 35 degrees. 35 degrees seems to be at the limit of what these engines can take without pinging which, of course, damages the engine. So, what you're saying is that your stock setup has no safety margin.

I and the other folks I've talked to seem to be at about 12 degrees BTDC at idle when timed so that full advance is 35 degrees. And some of these engines cannot handle that much advance, and pinging occurs unless you retard back to factory spec (5 degrees BTDC).

Just for clarification.....on a tight autocross course, 914's ARE INDEED faster. Their wheelbase is both wider and longer, their engines are in the correct location, they are lower, etc etc. On longer autocross courses, th e911's and 944s battle it out, but on short courses, it's "The 914 Show."

Of course, this is more than just acceleration. 914's will rarely win a drag race against a 911.

TonyG,

You need to release the handbrake on the Carrera..

Seriously tho, there should not be THAT much difference between the SC and the Carrera.. Something is making a huge difference. Could be alignment specs (double check with another shop ? ), could be tire/wheel choice ( did you try swapping ALL the tires on both cars ? ), or could be a combination of both and more..

7s and 9s compared to 6s and 7s would make a huge difference in all aspects of cornering and grip AND would change your suspension feedback feel ( something about moment arms and levers )..

Put the 6s and 7s on the SC and go for a spin.. You will be surprised.

ausdilecce

It could be the rims and tires I suppose. And I've not swapped them out.

Anyway, I was just giving my opinion based on my observations and the fact that for once... I own both cars at the same time (having owned other SC's and other Carrera's in the past).

The biggest difference t me is that the Carerra just doesn't feel "light on its feet" like the SC does. Sorry... but that's the best explanation I can offer (obviously non scientific).

But like I said... they are both great cars. Very similar, and yet very different. (more similar than different).


In any case.. the Carrera is going to get sold. It will make a perfect basis for a club racer for someone.

TonyG

You're right, it's 5deg. before TDC. I went back and corrected it. Just to make sure that we are comparing apples to apples, the factory spec for full advance for U.S. model late SCs is 19-25 deg., (they sure gave themselves a big margin there), but that is with vacuum advance disconnected. With it hooked up, it translates into ~28-34 deg. BTDC, in my case I got the whole amount, ie. 25 w/o and ~34 with vacuum. I never, and I mean never had any pinging issues at sea level w/ 87 octane pump gas, which the car is designed to burn.

Same thing w/ the idle spec, if you guys are checking it w/ the vacuum hooked up, (incorrect method for factory spec), it's going to be a completely different #, but I have no idea what it is since I wouldn't do it that way. Something is fishy w/ your numbers because my distributer and advance set-up was stock and checked for proper operation during rebuild. Actually, Tyson did a quick rebuild and cleaning, etc., to my dizzy to make sure it wasn't sticky.

Tony, Those truck scales are off by a country mile @ that little of weight, it's like trying to weigh your hamster on a bathroom scale. Put it on some corner balance scales at any Porsche shop and get back to us. Here is my (almost identical weight but w/ an empty tank) car:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1109975948.jpg

A little comparison on dynos as well.

Here is my '79 CIS SC with SSIs, a 2/2 Dansk and a 20/21 web cam

http://www.standingwave.org/albums/p.../agg.sized.jpg

and the same engine as a 3.4 along with a 3.5 and a 3.6.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1104431138.jpg

rdane

That 3.4 isn't the "same engine as a 3.4". Nor is it a simple displacement increase. Big difference and not a relevant comparision.

We're talking stock long blocks here with nothing more than a cam swap.

TonyG

I would disagree. Actually very relevant for comparisons as far as dynos go...which can't be set in stone anyway.

First dyno I posted was a stock '79 CIS 3.0 with SSIs and 20/21 cams nothing more.

The second a (3.4 98 X 74.4) or actual 3.356 CIS with 20/21 cams, SSIs again and 9.8:1 compression. Pretty much the same as the 3.2 over bore you posted above. but .156cc bigger on displacement.

The 3.4 is a CIS 3.356 over bore. Your first dyno sheet is on a 3.2 was a 3.2 overbore on a SC with CIS and 964 cams in your first graph and still has the same mods but no PMOs.

Just a couple of dyno comparisons to look at .

If you do a pound for pound comparison of the SC and Carrera the Carrera will always win because of the better engine. As many have noted the Carrera usually left the factory heavier than the SC. Make them the same weight and the Carrera shines with more power, torque, better brakes, better radio antenna, better aero designs and in the last few years a much better gear box.

Start doing engine mods and the Carerra engine management will really shine. Add a few inexpensive mods to the 3.2 for 250 hp. You'll need 10K$ to dulicate that kind of power in a SC.

I own a heavily moded SC. Not many Carerras that will match it. Ralph's comes to mind which betters it for power. But my car weighs at least a hundred pounds less after a serious diet. But the Carrera is a much better car as a base and much cheaper to mod to a performance level that will put any SC to shame.

3.6 transplants included.

rdane

First off, your SC 3.0 comparision was certainly relevant. The other engine is not. I've read/seen your list of mods. You should focus that engine comparisions to 3.2 Carrera engines and up.

Secondly, it wouldn't take $10k to make 250Hp.

Actually, I could fab up a very inexpensive turbo setup to use the stock CIS and quite easily make 250Hp all day long (actually a lot more than that).... for probably close to <$3,500


In fact, I'm seriously considering twin turbo'ing, my PMO'ed SC in a low 7psi boost blow-through application.

Or I could sell off my new PMO setup, and install some of the used TWM stuff I have in the garage with a standalone ECU and turbo that.

With a stock 3.0L I could easily make 300RWHP all day for probably considerably less than what you have in your 3.4L N/A engine.


And like I mentioned earlier in my posts... I've run against plenty of Carrera's on the track (WSIR is a high speed track BTW). None have been able to take me. Not even close. And we're talking about a 1/2 mile straight that is entered into at 85+mph (thus driving ability is not an issue). This includes a 964RS, and a couple of Euro 3.2 Carrera Cab's (chipped with MAF, Test Pipe, Muffler) and a couple of US chipped headered 3.2 Carrera's. I shouldn't be able to, but either the car is real light or it's making more HP than measured. But this has occured multiple times at the track.

On the street/freeway it's the same thing.

Lastly, not only have I personally owned several 3.2 Carrera's and SC's in the past, I currently own a Euro 3.2 factory sunroof delete model... My SC will take it all day long without any problem.

Like I said before. The Carrera is the one to get sold off of my collection. The SC stays. :-)

TonyG

Man that was a big jump...now we are comparing turbos?!

A 3.0 SC with carbs that beats 964RS at the track. Now that is impressive.

rdane

Comparing a 3.4L to a 3.0L is no different than comparing a 3.0L low boost turbo to a heavily modified 3.4L N/A (it's not a comparision.. just like comparing your 3.4L to a 3.0L setup).

And yes. A "3.0SC with carbs" took a 964RS at WSIR down the straights. In fact, the last time I did it, there were a few people from this board there. The 964RS owner is a member of this board as well.

TonyG

The original question was why is a SC more fun. I would agree a base SC is more fun that a base 3.2.

Make a 3.2 Carrera the same weight as a 3.0 SC and I suspect all the differences will disappear in favor of the 3.2 with all the upgrades the I described in the previous post.

My car as it was upgraded was more fun that a 993 from my perspective and should be even more fun when running again.

But it is no more an SC now than it is a 993 turbo.

I'd say a Euro 231Hp Sunroof Delete Coupe is about as good as it's gonna get. I also think it's about as light as a Carrera is going to get w/o deleting things or going to carbon fiber/fiberglass. And.. I happen to also own one of those.

Like I said.. the Carrera is the one that's going to get sold. Not the SC.

BTW.. I don't think 993's are fun unless they have a set of turbos hanging off the headers.

I tried to keep my car an SC by staying with a stock long block (except the cams). The addition of PMO's and SSI's are right inline with that era. It's a nice 3 liter street car which is a ton of fun to drive.

TonyG

TonyG, What color is the Euro Carrera? How much are you asking? TIA. :cool:

I know you guys are onto another topic (the one the origional poster was asking to avoid 'Carrea vs. SC') but I think the posters point is Hp/speed is not directly related to fun. I had a 1970 high comp. big block Corvette that produced more HP, than a new Porsche Turbo I sold it and now have a 1967 2.0L 911 that I find to be alot more fun to drive. Now granted that is not for everybody but street cars who's primary mission is to provide fun is not nessaserly the same as a fast lap time track car driven on the street. :rolleyes:

Not quite....

I went from a '71 911 S to a '86 Carrera, both Targas, the '71 with Webbers--about 200 hp (fairly freshly rebuilt motor), the '86 chipped--about 225 hp. The Carrera absolutely dominated the 'S'. Before I let the '71 go I did multiple very scientific back to back seat of the pants runs! There was no comparison, the Carrera just plain breathed deaper than the small displacement engine could.

speeder

The color is a metalic grey with black interior.

No sunroof. 81k miles. Euro Carrera with no sunroof. Interior is excellent with 2 exceptions: 1) 1/2" crack on dash leading from defroster vent. I will replace the dash to fix. 2) seam seperation on front seat. This will also be fixed. There are the normal amount of stone chips. No dents/dings. No apparent accident damage. Have leakdown/compression results and ppi results. Car runs extremely smooth and stong (real strong top end pull). New Bilstein Sports Front/Rear. Fuch 6/7. H4 upgrade. 4 spoke steering wheel upgrade. Brakes good/Rotors Good, Tires 40%, Tranny shifts perfectly, zero oil leaks, no smoke/oil consumption. $21k

The car is going to get taken to California Speedway on March 18-20 for the PCA Speed Festival as the beginning of the attempt to sell the car (if you're in the area)

TonyG

PS> Sorry for turning my post into a classifieds ad... but he asked :-)