Whats the difference between a GT2 and a GT3?
 

Any insight would help me prepare for my dream car even though I have to wait 3-4 years. Is Porsche still making these models? What newer Porsche models will depreciate the least?

Thanks in Advance

The basic difference is that the GT2 is a turbo and the GT3 is not.
The GT2 is very expensive even by Porsche standards.
-Chris

I think the GT2 might be had for a better buy as of late. It is faster then the GT3, but the GT3 undercut it by price so much, early buyers of the 2's overpaid. Still used, they might be higher then a new GT3. If you have this kind of moola laying around, wait for the new 997 GT3.

Is the new 997 GT3 going to be aircooled? is the current GT3
air or water cooled??

all current Porsches are watercooled, I highly doubt they're going to change this on future models.

The GT3 is basically the sporting version of the Carrera and naturally aspirated 911 models.

The GT2 is the sporting version of the Turbo. The new GT2s are quite a bit overpriced, but barely used examples can be had for a bargain (in the 130 range).

so are all GT3's water cooled? when did they first get manufactered??

The Gt2 & GT3 engines use the (original 930 type) air cooled cases and cylinders - with water cooled multivalve heads, as I am given to understand it.

This is still the only trackable case design, AFAIK...;-)

Bill is correct, the motors are based off the 964 Turbo 3.6 engine with water-cooled heads and use a true dry-sump oil-cooling system. The 911 Carrera and Boxster engines use what Porsche calls an "integrated dry-sump" (aka BS term for non dry-sump).

There are two types of GT3, the first is the GT3 Mk. 1 which was never officially imported to the U.S. and the 2nd, the GT3 Mk. 2 which is what we got. The most noticeable differences between the Mk. 1 and Mk. 2 are a larger motor with more hp (.2 liter bump and 20 more hp), and the exterior is totally different on the GT3 Mk. 2 since it uses the "face-lifted" post-2001 996 look.

Mk. 1

http://www.sportdrivers.ch/images/ev...-2-800x640.jpg

Mk. 2

http://www.rsportscars.com/foto/01/911gt303_04_800.jpg

All Porsches as of '99 and up are water cooled.

GT2 is a turbo 2wd car

GT3 is normally aspirated

GT3 RS only in Europe, I believe is even lighter that the US version GT3


I can't wait to see the new 997 GT3

FYI there was also a 993 GT2 in europe which was of course air cooled, problem is they only sold 50 street versions over there:

http://www.porsche993gt2.com/GT2_front.jpg

There was never an air cooled GT3, the equivalent is the 964RS and 993RS, neither of which the US got :(

From Men's Journal Magazine last year -

911 GT3 - Narrow body with especially high rear wing, rear wheel drive, nonturbo, 380hp, $99,900. The 911 without all the ballast (i.e. a backseat) and the least domesticated non turbo model ever. Chimps may swing from its rear spoiler.

911 GT2 - Wide body with high rear wing, rear wheel drive, turbocharged, 477hp, $191,700. The 911 that inspires fear in its test drivers. Like 911s of yore, this version can still demonstrate the lunacy of the rear-engine layout. The ultimate 911.

The real answer to the question would be that they are racing classes, ie. GT1/GT2/GT3/etc.., in descending order of speed/power. They are classes in sportscar racing such as ALMS, LeMans, et al... :cool:

As recently as Saturday I was told by several folks that the water cooled engine is not specified by Porsche for tracking, and that Porsche will put the track engine (air cooled) in any 996 or 997 for you as an option, and this is what they recommend if you're going to track it.

Huge torque vs. wind it out (and a 2x price diff. as above).

I drove Todd Serota's GT-2 and it was a monster. I was ultra super conservative with it... if you push the pedal down 1 cm in a curve... watch out.

I think you are confusing water/air cooling w/ wet/dry sump. All the '99 up are water cooled, but the sport versions use dry sump while the street versions use wet.

dry sump is much preferred for track use.

all of the air cooled 911s were dry sump.

the dry sumps are based on a variation of the older 964/993 blocks

The dry sump tank is located over the trans bell housing on these cars
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110400854.gif

GT3RS and GT3
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401003.jpg

GT3Cup, I believe 2000
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401067.jpg

GT2
GT3RS and GT3
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401003.jpg

GT3Cup, I believe 2000
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401067.jpg

GT2
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401194.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110401461.jpg

Mark,

I've heard rumors that the 997 GT3 will use the "new" M96 case for the engine. It's not as solid of a base as the current GT's use of the 964 case. I love both these cars, and seriously considered a GT3, but since I've already got a track car I figured a TT would make a nicer cruiser. You're welcome to take it out for a spin if you and Sherry ever make it up to Merced.

See you in Willow Springs,

chris

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110405548.jpg


Another GT2

Bill, I understand about dry sump versus wet sump, but I have a hanging suspicion that there is more difference between a modern Porsche track motor and a street motor than just where the engine oil reservoir is located.

I really don't know whether any part of any modern Porsche engine is "air cooled," but I am told the race engines are. In fact, there is a significant price difference as well, I am told. I think a brand new out-of-the-box water cooled street engine is something like $12K. Just about everything about this engine is different, including the manufacturing processes. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but just noticing that there are several bits of evidence suggesting that the Porsche track-spec motor of today is actually a modern version of the air cooled engine they have been racing for many decades....although it may have water-cooled heads.

I think even Wayne started a thread once confessing surprise that Porsche track engines are still water-cooled. I think he said they are essentially the 993 engine.

Minkoff -
I've nothing to add to the distinctions our friends have laid out, but if the diamond necklace earns you a Porsche ticket to punch and you're in the GT2 stratosphere, I humbly suggest looking for a coupla' year-old Ruf while you're looking.

I'm not a Ruf expert by any means, but I'll say I don't think I've seen one I wouldn't have bought if I could've. And what Ruf is up to with the new 997 is astonishing, IMHO. :D

Good luck.

JP

AFAIK the GT3 is fully water-cooled (both heads and cilinders), but it is based on the 964 block (real dry sump, like the good 'ol days)
They don't go "boom" when you drive 'm on the track with sticky tires :D

The TT and GT2 use the very same engine as the GT3, except being turbo charged...

Thanks Chris for the offer! I might take you up on it.

Thanks everybody for the great info. Pelican Boards are the best. If I wait 3 years and the 997 GT3 is "proven" and is a couple of years old I can skip the depreciation ( I hate it) I might find some poor sucker that got in over his head.
I am the kinda guy that keeps cars forever. What will the
997 GT3 be like in lets say 15-20 years ( 2020-2025)
Collectable or.............. 928,944,924,912E ( I dont dare say 964 I might hurt alot of feelings) woops I alredy said it.

Of course there is, nvertheless the most obvious and easily identifiable external feature identifing the 2 different water cooleed engines is the external oil tank used w/ the dry sump sytem.

As I said the dry sump block is a 964 casting

here is one of the internal(expensive features, Ti GT3 conrods
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110413547.jpg


Another very expensive GT3Cup component
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110413757.jpg

The downside of a '99 GT3Cup, later versions are more sophisticated versions oof the same basic units
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110413842.jpg

You wouldn't believe whta even this simple little air jack probe costs
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110413965.jpg

Bill, are the rear swaybar endlinks adjustable (in length, to remove preload) on that cup, and do the multilink bushings still have some rubber in them?

Thanks in Advance.

Please explain *airjacks*, ie. what are they again?? TIA. :cool:

Most of the Cup cars going back to 993Cup and even some 964 Cups had air jacks.

GT3 front jack
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110415954.jpg

2 behind the seats
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110416092.jpg


The probe hooks up here
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110416139.jpg

ants eye view
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110416322.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110416387.jpg

Sways are adjustable, leter versions are more so
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110416474.jpg

I believe ruf is making the car named the rt12, based on the 997. They offer it in your choice of rwd or awd, and come in 3 engine flavors, 530, 560, or 650. BTW, those are hp figures :eek:
http://www.ruf-automobile.de/english/aktuell/aktuell1.htm

997 based Ruf RT12
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110417232.jpg

I see, they have their own collar and lockring. for some reason I thought that collar's movement affected something else as well, but it's clear with the shot from the other side.

Thanks for all the pretty pictures, Bill!

I lot of this stuff oughta be in MOMA:)

Finally found the one I was looking for

Watercooled 996GT3R crankcase

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110419998.jpg

Minkoff, if I were you, I'd wait to see what Porsche has in store to replace the 997.

A little bird told me that it will blow your socks off. He has seen the designs personally, and said it will make us early car guys go nuts. So just hold out until then if you can.

BTW, you didn't hear this from me. ;)

Am I the only one who thinks that the 997 is uglier than the 996?

Actually, I like 996's looks OK if they are set up right, ie. color/wheels/interior/etc... This goes for all cars, though, in my book.

Can't stand the 997, looks like a horrible quasi-retro cowpie. Just god-awful, IMO. :cool:

no kidding!

Yes, you are absolutely the only one. ;)

Actually, I was behind a 997S the other day (driven by like a 60-year-old woman?), and I kind of liked the direct rear view. I still have problems with the 997's look, but to me the 996 was much worse.

Minkoff, if you want to see both a GT2 and a couple of GT3 Cup cars up close and personal for comparison, you are not far away from my friend's race prep shop in Laguna Hills. Vision is in the midst of stripping a street GT2 for Club Racing. How much do you think this guy's bill is going to be when they are all done???

Customer GT2 being stripped down at Vision Motorsports:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110430440.jpg

Motor out of the car:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110430621.jpg

One of the Vision/Bernheim Cup cars. DNF at Daytona a few weeks back after missing a shift during the night and zinging the motor on the high side of 10K! Set 4th fastest lap in GT though, pretty impressive for a small, grassroots team without a star-studded driver line-up.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110430921.jpg

One last shot of the GT2 going on a diet:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110430996.jpg

Cruise on down, the guys are real personable, although things are hectic right now with all of the races (Grand-Am, PCA & Tribute to LeMans) all coming up within in the next 6 weeks!

Ralph

I'm a fan of Vision MS, but "small" and "grassroots"?? Bernheim wrote in the POC magazine about last year's Daytona experience. They won ~$8k in prize $$ and it cost them something like $400k for the weekend. Not including the cost of the brand new GT3-RSR factory race car. Kids, don't try this at home. ;)

Suing people been berry, berry good to him. :D

Don't get me wrong, I definitely live vicariously through them. His daily driver, (at last year's CFOS):
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1110436917.jpg

Thanks Ralph, I know Dwain and most the guys down at Vision. Dwain sets up the chassis on my race car, he is the master

I would still consider them "grassroots", the term being relative when you compare to "professional" teams like Farnbacher and Flying Lizard in Grand-Am and Job, White Lightning, etc in ALMS. They run all of the local/regional POC, PCA & NASA events but at the professional level they are just starting out and only run Daytona & Fontana. They don't run the full Grand-Am schedule like most of the well established teams. The weekend race crew is just the shop mechanics and "volunteers" who lend a hand.

Steve has deep pockets, no doubt about it, both Cup cars are his, the 993tt is his, the 935 conversion you see in the background is his, as well as a few others lurking around the shop. Those are just his Porsche "toys", you should see his house!

BTW, they ran one of the Cup cars at Daytona last year in SGS, they don't have a GT3RSR (at least not yet).:)

Ralph

I think that is the first Bentley I've seen with a bumper sticker.