Neatrix Spring plate bushing

Breeang · 03-09-2005, 12:06 PM

Okay I know this has been discussed many times ere now,but here we go.
I have new Neatrix Spring plate bushes about to go in: the external surfaces (ie where they touch the car),should they be dry for grip, causing torsion/wear ? or lubricated for rotation ,providing support for the outside end of the torsion bar ?. My theory is that since the things wear on the surface, there is movement ,so lubrication is a good thing. Or am I missing something ? I am assuming that the internal surface will remain glued (hopefully) to the spring plate tube .

Zeke · 03-09-2005, 05:14 PM

TRE says lube the whole thing and let it do what it wants. My torsion tube was rusty and pitted, so I knew it wasn't going to rotate well in there. The outer surface is what I would have glued, if anything, and had the spring plate rotate in the smaller ID of the bushing.

And, yes, I would lube the surface that contacts the plate or you might get a squeak from there.

patkeefe · 03-09-2005, 07:08 PM

There is no one correct answer for this question, it seems. What it does seem is that no matter what method you use, it works for somebody.
I still haven't decided what to do with mine...first I'll put in the new trailing arm bushings, so I can stall for a few more days.
Pat

HarryD · 03-09-2005, 07:18 PM

When I did mine, not knowing any better, I glued the ID to the plates and the left the OD Alone. I figure anything I put on the OD would make them difficult or impossible to remove after a few years.

patkeefe · 03-09-2005, 07:32 PM

Harry:
I glued my ID also. When I see the static effect of the new trailing arm bushings, I'll have a better idea what to do with the spring plate OD. My feeling is the trailing arm and spring plates need to move in unison and really constitute a single system. I found an old post where Chuck Moreland commented that the trailing arms should be rubber, not Neatrix. I'll trust his judgement on this.
Pat

dimps8 · dimps8's Garage

don't get confused. Neatrix is rubber, Weltmeister also sell the poly ones.

patkeefe · 03-09-2005, 08:03 PM

I didn't say it right! The Neatrix on my spring plates are rubber, not the polys, although it seems to be a different composition rubber than the factory rubber. I have the factory style rubber coming for the trailing arms. Just an observation, I'm not a polychemist. I have the Neatrix polys in the front, they're not as soft a composition.

Breeang...have we added to your confusion.? The factory bonded the rubber to the spring plates for a reason, but the TRE thoughts proposed by Zeke have merit also. What to do, what to do...

randywebb · 03-09-2005, 08:06 PM

Think about the mass of the whole shooting match, the friction (stiction) in the shocks, the dampening of the shocks... now raise your hand if you really think that gluing one side of the rubber matters.

.... I don't see any hands....

patkeefe · 03-09-2005, 08:20 PM

Randy:
That is an excellent point, and valid. What bugs me is why did the factory glue them? In 2005 terms, bonding them costs money, so why would they bond them if they didn't feel it was necessary? I think it's one of these engineering things that I have learned to let annoy me.
Pat

Zeke · 03-09-2005, 09:01 PM

Why did the factory bond the bushings? It was a different setup for a different reason. There was no rotation intended on the fronts, and I would submit with my limited knowldge that there was no rotation in the rear either. The rubber deflected and served to isolate the suspension from the body.

Therefore, according to my thinking, the rear bushing never rotated in the tube until it got worn or broke loose due to rust. I'll stand by my opinion that the bigger OD should remain static. Even if I was wrong about TRE.

randywebb · 03-09-2005, 09:32 PM

They often do things to simplify assembly...

And -- they could have even been wrong about something(!) Look at the chain tensioners as just one example. How long did that take to get right? Then there is the entire electrical system, the misfires on the CIS cars (PAG tried the metal spark plug surrounds for that), and etc.

If you want to glue them, don't let me stop you -- but I didn't glue mine.

HarryD · 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by randywebb
They often do things to simplify assembly...

And -- they could have even been wrong about something(!) Look at the chain tensioners as just one example. How long did that take to get right? Then there is the entire electrical system, the misfires on the CIS cars (PAG tried the metal spark plug surrounds for that), and etc.

If you want to glue them, don't let me stop you -- but I didn't glue mine.

I was not sure what to do with the glue that came in the package so I called Jeff at Rothsport. His advice was to "goober up the ID with the stuff and be sure none was on the OD". But then again, what would he know?

Also, if you glue the Bushing OD, you now have attached the bushing to the body and to the springplate cover. You are allowing the springplate to freely rotate in the bushing (kinda like a poor man's bearing). Since I would think you want the rubber to provide some resistance to the springplate turning (to dampen the ride), gluing the OD would seem to defeat this function.

Zeke · 03-09-2005, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by HarryD
Since I would think you want the rubber to provide some resistance to the springplate turning (to dampen the ride), gluing the OD would seem to defeat this function.

Hah! That contention has been brought up before. However, the counterpoint is that's what you have good shocks for. Let the bushing not bind or cause "stiction."

For ultimate performance, the suspension should be as free as the steering while the car is off the ground and the t-bars are removed. Add the bars and the shock that were designed to go together and the suspension will perform at maximum efficiency without mitgation from a bushing. Some have dsigned a roller bearing for this application. Both sides free.

To each his own. What do you want in ride comfort? In my car, you can feel the pebbles in the road, the rain grooves on the freeway toss the car back and forth and the road noise is definately there with a full, stock interior. Alot of this has to do with which tire I choose for the day, shaved DOT R rated, or z rated full treads.

HarryD · 03-09-2005, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeke
Hah! That contention has been brought up before. However, the counterpoint is that's what you have good shocks for. Let the bushing not bind or cause "stiction."

For ultimate performance, the suspension should be as free as the steering while the car is off the ground and the t-bars are removed. Add the bars and the shock that were designed to go together and the suspension will perform at maximum efficiency without mitgation from a bushing. Some have dsigned a roller bearing for this application. Both sides free.

To each his own. What do you want in ride comfort? In my car, you can feel the pebbles in the road, the rain grooves on the freeway toss the car back and forth and the road noise is definately there with a full, stock interior. Alot of this has to do with which tire I choose for the day, shaved DOT R rated, or z rated full treads.

Milt,

Exactly.

In a nutshell, if you are tracking the car, you want needle bearings to allow free movement but you will feel every bump in the road. Poly gets you part of the way but, as you note, they are subject to stiction but have the advantage of less maintenace than needle bearings. Rubber gives you a soft ride at the expense of precision a freedom of movement.

When I did my suspension, I spent a fair amount of time looking at alternatives. I had an interesting conversation with PWD72S about what he did and his goals. Helped my clear up what I needed to make me happy for how I like to use my car.

As Mr. Covey says: "Begin with the end in mind".

Chuck Moreland · 03-09-2005, 11:17 PM

Why did the factory bond them? So they would last a long time.

Bonded rubber bushings do not have a friction surface and therefor do not wear at the (absent) friction surface. They deform, like streching a rubber band.

beamonk · 03-10-2005, 04:26 AM

I doubt the glue will really hold anything if you think about it. One also has to look at the weight factor on the rear and the effect it has on centering of the bushing. The weight will make the tube press to the top of the bushing. We fitted mine so it would rotate on the tube and in the cover, with minimum slack, then we goobed it up. I don't feel any ill effects and no squeaking. Most of us want these things not to bind, in my opinion, short of chuck's bushings, this is about the best we can get.

Breeang · 03-10-2005, 04:32 AM

Thanks Guys.
I am going to glue the bejesus out of the ID and lube the bejesus out of the OD.If I need to redo everything in about 10,000 miles that is about 4 years of driving for me.

patkeefe · 03-10-2005, 05:05 AM

I would think, as Chuck stated, that the you want them to deform. The deformation load is pretty large strictly from rotation, I think. Rubber is very brasive, by the way.

Now, what takes the lateral thrust in the rear suspension?

Breeang · 03-10-2005, 06:56 AM

I would think that the lateral thrust has to be controlled to a large extent by the oversized (for the weight of the vehicle) CV joints and the drive shafts which provide a pretty good directional control when you consider that they are bolted to the engine which is in turn bolted to the car.

Breeang · 03-10-2005, 06:58 AM

Ooops, I mean bolted to the transmission,!