The Ideal Shop.

[Grady Clay]

The ideal shop.

Most of us DIY for one of two reasons: It saves labor costs or you feel YOU can do what YOU want better than anyone else. Occasionally almost everyone takes their Porsche into a shop for something. The reasons may be specialized skills or tools (alignment, A/C, etc.), you just don’t want to deal with it (new baby, new job, etc.), you have exhausted your diagnostic or mechanical skills (what the he!! is going on here?), and many more.

Of course everyone would like to pay less money. Generally you get what you pay for. Shop owners, authorized dealers, and techs all need to make an acceptable living and return on their investment. You can’t run your Porsche on their backs and then expect them to be there for you.



If you were to take your prize Porsche to a shop, what kind of shop would you want?


I think everyone agrees with:
Careful – no new dings and no moly lube leather.
Technically knowledgably – you want professional expertise.
Honest – unfortunately there are people in the auto industry who are otherwise.
Good communication – it’s your car; you want to know and make decisions.


Here are my questions:

How large or small?
Owner–mechanic, owner–manager with good techs, or well run, savvy Dealer?
Lots of equipment & high-tech stuff or a mechanic’s tool box?
Prime location or off in some obscure industrial location?
Is appearance and cleanliness important?
Owner/crew involved with PCA, POC, SCCA, NASA, etc. or not?
Just mechanical service or more (alignment, tire mounting, engine/trans rebuilding, dyno ….)?
Parts and accessory sales important or not?
Upholstery and convertible top/Targa service or not?
Paint and body or not?
Buy and sell used Porsches or not?
An authorized Porsche dealer or not?
Social; is being able to “hang around” important?


What is important to you?


If I had the stamina, I would inspect and interview many shops around the world.
There are some that have earned a poor reputation. Why is that?
There are many that are well respected. Why is that?

What is the ideal shop for you?

Best,
Grady

[Jim Richards]

How large or small?
I never really consider size. Instead, I look at how backlogged the shop is and how organized they are with the work they have.

Owner–mechanic, owner–manager with good techs, or well run, savvy Dealer?
Probably owner-manager with good techs. No way I'd let a dealer touch my cars.

Lots of equipment & high-tech stuff or a mechanic’s tool box?
They have to be better equipped than my home garage, otherwise I wouldn't see any value.

Prime location or off in some obscure industrial location?
Not an issue for me, as long as they have a safe place to keep my car if it needs to stay there overnight.

Is appearance and cleanliness important?
Yes! Indicative of their workmanship.

Owner/crew involved with PCA, POC, SCCA, NASA, etc. or not?
I used to think this was important, but I'm seeing to many people's cars waiting on the hot-hot-hot problem(s) that the shop's regular racer customers' have.

Just mechanical service or more (alignment, tire mounting, engine/trans rebuilding, dyno ….)? This is the only outsourcing I've done so far.

Parts and accessory sales important or not?
Yes, it sure helps when you need a widget and you need it now.

Upholstery and convertible top/Targa service or not?
I'd sure like to get my sport seats recovered.

Paint and body or not?
Yes.

Buy and sell used Porsches or not?
Not interested in that from a shop.

An authorized Porsche dealer or not?
No. Unless I can afford a new Porsche to send it to the Dealer for regular service (unfortunately, not in this lifetime).

Social; is being able to “hang around” important?
OK, but as long as they are pleasant and trustworthy, that's enough.

Other - I am most impressed by shops run by folks that'll give you advice about what not to do, i.e., advise against unnecessary work or mods to my car. They have to be able to do this in a manner that shows they understand the customer's plans for the car and level of understanding.

Good questions Grady. I think the type of shop is a very personal decision and the likes will be as varied as the colors of our cars. I value honesty and knowledge of product as most important. I tend to like smaller shops where you can talk directly to the tech working on the car. Since moving to Seattle, I've been very fortunate to have John Walker work on my car a few times. The guy knows 911's inside and out, won't BS you and always has something new/interesting in his shop to look at.

[RoninLB]

around here a good mech is like a hairdresser.. they have a following.

[Drago]

I have to second Dr. Wilson...I've found no better than our own JWW.

Just make sure to bring plenty of Moose Drool Ale and all will be well.



P.S. John, I think it's time for new rear wheel bearings...I'll call ya!

[Porschekid962]

Someone who has been all over Porsche's for a long long time. Knows the ins and outs, little problems, big problems, cost effective mods, good following, some race history is important to me, happy clients.

Honesty goes without saying.

[Zeke]

I have been fortunate to have Andial do some work for me in the 80's. I even had them recently do a mundane engine drop on a 2.7 I bought in the car and had no other way to get it out at the time. Very reasonalble.

All work was done efficiently and on time. Fees were high, but less than a dealer......I think. At least the shop rate is a little less, not much. I tend now to gauge others by the Andial benchmark and few seem to measure up, both before Andial and since.

So, whatever Andial is to others, it is the quintessential shop for me. Oh, and they pretty much do it all mechanically.

[Por_sha911]

My perfect repair person would be someone named "Fritz" who is over 50. He has been working on German cars for 30+ years and he doesn't believe you when you tell him that there is such a thing as a water cooled 911. THAT man knows his air cooled 911's.
(double bonus points if he has a room in the back full of old parts because he hates to buy the new stuff from the dealership)

[Randy Webb]

I'd settle for a guy who doesn't lose the parts that were going to be installed on your car for months at a time, and didn't turn a 2 hour job into a 7 hour one because he couldn't find out where the tools he needed were located.....

[Wayne 962]

Funny - the instant I saw this thread, I thought I should start one called "The Ideal Customer..." I'll let JWW do that...

-Wayne

[nostatic]

TRE is a pretty good model to follow. The thing I like is that they love what they do, are really into fabricating stuff, and know what works and what doesn't. A couple of mechanics (good so the work can be spread around), one brainiac (who can drive the wheels off of anything) and the "front office" walks the walk too (ie Dave instructs at the track, active in POC, etc).

There are multiple "right" answers I think.

[Jim Richards]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Funny - the instant I saw this thread, I thought I should start one called "The Ideal Customer..." I'll let JWW do that...

-Wayne

Now Wayne....

[Schrup]

I'm with Mark, I want a shop that I don't have to be worried about getting gouged or shoddy work. JWW had my car for a few days earlier this year & he called me every evening with a full update. My bill was several hundred dollars less then I expected & the quality was top notch.

[RoninLB]

Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts
Funny - the instant I saw this thread, I thought I should start one called "The Ideal Customer..." I'll let JWW do that...

"The Ideal Customer..." pays his bills.

[Jim Sims]

The ideal customer wants the repairs done properly and doesn't come up with the phrase: "I can't afford that; can you fix it for five dollars so it'll last just another five years." A sure sign the person is driving a vehicle beyond their means. Many people who haven't done wrenching themselves do not appreciate what hard, dirty work it can be. Jim

[Grady Clay]

Many DIY owners say to themselves “If I can do this on my own car and enjoy it, why not get paid for something I like?”
Many mechanics envision being shop owners and make less money.
Many shop owners get so involved they can’t see the forest for the trees. Some would become great Factory Dealers if they could.
Too many Dealers could just as well sell Pontiacs as Porsches, totally missing the point. There are notable exceptions; Stoddard, VP, Brumos, and more.
Even PAG has swayed from the fold slightly, out of financial necessity. It is one of very few semi-private automakers left in the world (and the best.)




Size; everyone learned “economy of scale” in 10th grade.
A one-man shop is constantly behind. There are things that have to be done that interrupt the work; talking to customers, ordering parts, taking the money to the bank so today’s checks clear, etc.
The Toyota dealer we use is so large they have divided the service into eight+ teams, each with a service writer, three top mechanics, six+ helpers, a shag who moves the cars around, and a parts runner between the parts dept and the crew. We take our Toyotas there because they are efficient. I would guess they see over 100 cars per day. The closer 2-man Toyota shop can’t find their way out of an open paper bag.

Where is the balance?

There is some clearly defined “division of labor” that a good shop needs:

The communication with customers must be accurate and timely. A customer should always be able to talk to a real person promptly to find out the status of the work, make an appointment, or add something they forgot. Mechanics need to be working on your car, not waiting on parts or dealing with customers all day. A good “service writer/owner/manager/mechanic/diagnostician” is one critical link.

The parts department should have all the necessary usual parts and an efficient system to get the required parts. There should be proper inventory system. One of the largest drains of money in a poorly organized shop is parts not charged out. A parts department should not be cafeteria style. A parts department needs at least one full-time person. Preferably two so there is coverage during lunch and late in the afternoon. A good parts system is another critical link.

Good mechanics are well supported. That means clean, well lit, uncluttered, properly equipped work areas. Access to all the specialized tools and technical information. When there is an unusual problem there is back-up help. An example might be; if an exhaust stud breaks, the equipment and support is there to help fix it. A good shop doesn’t leave a mechanic hanging. Skilled, experienced, dedicated, honest, and well supported mechanics are the key link.

The customer parts counter is a large source of revenue and a great place for customers to “hang out.” For the cost of giving an exploded diagram print-out and some torque specs, DIY customers will find good reason to spend more. There is advantage in both directions for good “while you are there” advice.

There should be a system for technical information and specialized tools. No one can work on these cars without proper tools, fuel injection, electrical, dimensions, torque specs, part numbers, and technical information.

The bookkeeping and money handling should be proper and supervised. Many small shops don’t realize there is a problem until too late and find they owe withholding taxes. If you find you are solicited for cash at a discount – pay attention. Credit cards charge the shop a fee, so there are legitimate reasons.

Cleanliness is absolutely necessary from a technical standpoint. Additionally no one likes to patronize or work in a dirty environment. This requires an employee or a service to keep everything clean. A regular repaint on the floor with very light gray (just shy of white) is useful. Good lighting is essential.

We have all heard the admonition in real property, “location, location, location.” I think this is absolutely true for a Dealer. For the “Ideal Shop” the location can be somewhat less prominent. The critical issue is that it must be convenient for the customers. It also should be easily found by a customer’s spouse, law partner, staff, friend, etc. Everyone with a nice Porsche is concerned about its security.


OK guys, let’s hear more opinions.


Jim & Mark, I agree with most everything you posted. However, I think it is possible for there to be Dealers who can provide great service and Porsche character. The problem is that is not the norm.
Porsche has always been tied to VW somewhat. VW, DB (now DC), and others have been a huge source of engineering revenue for PAG. There were the VW-Porsche dealers with semi-independent regional importers and Porsche of America involved, the Porsche-Audi era with VoA as the importer (an unpleasant time for Porsche), and now PCNA (thanks in part to CS) that is a good solution. The issue is how to get PCNA dealers to behave as enthusiastic Porsche dealers and not Pontiac wannabees.

Milt, both Andial and Garretson Enterprises were somewhat modeled after Rennenhaus. When Dieter, Alvin, and Arnold left Vasek, he was pi$$ed. It shouldn’t have been any surprise, Arnold Wagner and I had talked about it for several years. When Bruce, Jerry and Bob started GE that just formalized what they had been doing for many years.

Joe, there is such a thing as becoming too specialized. We have all heard the expression “Too much repetition makes jack a dull boy.” Yes, I like a mechanic who is extremely familer with my car and the like. I also want one who sees the whole range of Porsche technology. The fun part of this Forum is members apply 997 technology to their ’72 911.
I agree with Joe, having a stash of used parts is very valuable – both for cost and efficiency where applicable.

Randy noticed an important indicator. How long have customer’s cars been at the shop? Most service and minor repair can be done within a day. Some unusual repairs might take a week. If you find Porsches in the shop for a month or more, it should only be for a serious rebuild.
Randy also hit on another big issue. If your car is in for some rebuild, how are your parts handled? Are they piled in some cardboard boxes and stashed in a corner with other stuff or they properly cleaned, inspected, organized, and kept separate?

nostalgic hit on a good indicator: They like what they do; TRE is a lover of the art of Porsche. Porsche is about fun – period. If you want to own and drive the best – Porsche. If you want to mechanic on the best – Porsche. If you want to deal with the best owners – Porsche.

Paul, what you are seeing is “over-quote.” Very common and very desirable from everyone’s standpoint. When you take your car in and the job is not absolutely clear, a good shop will quote you at the high end of the possibilities and tell you so. The others will tell you they can do it for $100 when they know perfectly well it might be $1500.

Ronlin, correct, an ideal shop and an ideal customer have a great relationship. The shop always gets paid and the customer is happy with the work.

Jim is right on. If you find a shop that will “do it on the cheap”, find another shop. While good shops can do a “quick fix” for a regular customer, a shop with the reputation for “doing it right” (even if it is expensive) is what you want.

Everyone on this Forum has taken your porsche to a shop. What is your ideal shop like?

Best,
Grady


Corrected some spelling, sorry.

[Jim Sims]

My Porsche was sold to me with the condition that it not be taken to a commercial shop, dealer or otherwise. I was to work on it or have the seller work on it. Except for alignments (which I monitor by watching/helping the tech on the rack - most have to be shown how to find the alignment specs in the computer and how to make the adjustments especially in the rear end) I've been able to abide with that condition and can likely continue to do so into the future. In five years of of Porsche ownership and through the complete restoration of a 1973.5 T except for sending engine parts off to Ted Robinson in Sunnyvale for reburbishing, mounting tires (always take wheels off and take to local shop) and alignments we did it all including corner balancing in our garage with a portable frame and scales. It's a hobby out of control! Jim

[Zeke]

Grady, in the first part of your 'answer' post you clearly described Andial. And the difference between Andial and TRE would appear that Andial is a top notch maintanence facility and TRE is both that and a track/street prep shop. Not that you can't get Andial to do the mods, but do you want to pay for it? I wouldn't consider Andial for a splitter installation, but I would consider TRE since they sell their own and install them. If only they were on this side of the metropolis. We have nothing in the getto.

Nostatic has the 'ultimate' answer; there are multiple answers.

[speeder]

Interesting thread and great input, Grady. I do most all of my own work on my 911, but when I do send it to a shop it will probably be TRE because of Tyson+ Dave B. and Jeremy. They really do know the cars and are performance/race/weekend warrior oriented.

In So.Cal., there are many over-qualified shops to work on old 911s. In other places, it's the opposite.

It is also interesting how opinions are formed, like "I would never take my car to a dealer"(??) I'm sure that there was some reason for this one, but I can also think of dealers, (including one I worked at), who have forgotten more than your mechanic will ever know about these cars. (Maybe that's the problem).

I've never been involved w/ running a shop, but the observations about efficiency are right on. Cars sitting forever is a bad sign.

[speeder]

Milt, I think that I understand the part of your post about having TRE install a splitter, but to call Andial a "maintenence facility" is just not correct. Yes they will do maintenence, like any full-service shop, but they are the absolute pinacle of Porsche performance application in the U.S.