The issue, really, is whether there's enough of a market out there to justify the R&D and tooling expenses.

scottb-
close to cma----ntd. navy pilot @vx-30 point mugu.
andy

Dan (carsinc)

Got your e-mail should make some interesting reading tonight.

Thanks a bunch!!!

Randy

Okay, going off some of the things that were posted today, I went out this evening to take another look. Here's what I found:

The plastic trim piece in the center of this pic seemed to be a bit off center. Thought this might be the problem, since it looks the same on both sides.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112668704.jpg

Removed the plastic trim piece and tried for fitment and there was no change. So, I looked to the targa pin. Both sides looked as chewed up as this one (driver's side) so obviously it is catching on something:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112668990.jpg

With both the plastic trim piece AND the targa pin removed, I put the top back on the car. The drivers side looked better, but there was still a gap.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112669143.jpg

There was virtually no visible change to the passenger side.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112669212.jpg

Here's a shot of the latch receptacle. The gap between it and the vinyl piece is due to weathering on the vinyl piece. (I think! ;))
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112669467.jpg

Everything is put back in their original position now. One additional thing I noticed was that, while the trim piece and the pin were removed, I could press down on the outer leading edge of the targa top itself and it would release the latch inside the car. With both pieces installed, the latch did not release unless I turned the handle. Not enough pressure to keep the latch over-centered, I suppose.

Randy

Did anybody hear back from Dan on the article on modifying the targa seal? I could use the info and any pics from the article.

yeah this is what he sent me, no pictures:

Targa Seal tech article Windshield Frame A Pillar Seal problem

A problem has developed for Targa owners from an unusual source. Somewhere during the last few years, when ordering a new replacement front windshield frame pillar seal, one receives a superseded seal. Problem folks, these superseded seals just don't fit 89 and older Targa's. The proper part number is no longer obtainable. Old part #911 565 090 47 now superseded #911 799 565 80. You may, in fact, get the proper part # on the package but the seal will be the superseded one. I have been told that the official response to this situation is that the new seal will require cutting and shaping to get the proper fit. Since where to cut and shape has been a mystery, the choice has been either to retain your old seal or live with an ill-fitting top.
The difficulty with the new seal is varies from 2mm to 4mm too deep across the whole top and 4 mm too wide at the corners. This results in the seal not fitting far enough down into the body groove, thus the seal seats up too high and the top rides on top of the seal. Roller latches on tops from 86-89 can be adjusted but this is a Band-Aid fix because wind noise will result. There is no such luck for 69-85 cars. Damage usually occurs to the latch by forcing the top to fit. It would seem that the second rule of carpentry applied when the seal was made, " cut it big and kick it into place".
Now the fix: What needs to be done is the removal of material from the seal so that it will slip unimpeded into the channel. Material needs to be not only removed from the sides but also from the bottom of the seal, as mentioned. The best approach I have found for removing material from the seal is to use a thin blade razor knife and saw it off.
Side of seal material removal: Remove 2 mm on each side of the seal downward and inward 3 ¼"from the 90-degree bend. The proper width should be 10mm. New seals are 14 mm at this spot. Seal taper out to the regular thickness the last ½" or so. This includes removal of material from the large triangular corner knob. It needs to be shaved on the sides by 2mm to 3mm wherever it touches the V metal corner channel.
Bottom of seal material removal: The underside material of the seal needs material removed by 2mm to 3mm in the same corner area. In my modifications, I have removed material 2mm from entire windshield length with good results.
Test fit: You can test your work as you go along by periodically testing top for fit. The seal should not be forcing the top upward during these fittings. The seal dry should be just a tad loose for when you apply glue in the channel for installation. This space will be accounted for. I feel in order to get the seals bottomed out, it is best to install the seals with glue only in the channel and install the seal wet before the glue sets up. Until this seal situation is resolved with the proper sized one, this is our best chance of getting our Targa top to fit correctly.

Dan is owner of Cars Inc. of NJ. He is along time PCA member with a business of Restoring Targa Tops and Selling Vintage Parts. website carsinc-nj.com 609 298 2277


Targa Owners Only

We offer a full range of Targa top services, from full restoration to replacement tops for all year Targas. We use only the high grade materials which are unique to Targas, When tops are reconditioned they will perform and appear like new.

Targa’s were once the most sought after model in the Porsche line, but now they have fallen from grace due the poor quality of top repair performed by local shops. They don’t have the correct materials, fixtures to keep the top square and most important they don’t eat, sleep and breathe Porsche like I do. Do they own a Targa as there personal drive, I don’t think so.
Shipping: Fold top, obtain a box from a car dealer parts dept. or a body shop. About 32”x18”x 8”. Stuff folded newspaper around the top and take to a UPS facility. Return shipment paid by us with 2 day turn around for most tops.
Payment: Normally customer includes a check for the stages of repair they feel the top needs. Credit cards accepted for additional stages. Our tops don’t leak.
Order Desk 1 800 770 7671 Info Line 1 609 298 2277

Stages of Service.

1. Recover: Newer tops only require this service. Disassembly, check to ensure inner reinforcement is in tact, inspect for cracks, breaks or bent frame, sand clean and paint the frame, recover with original Germany vinyl, install updated double cloth improved headliner, minor hardware provided at no cost. $595

Note: The headliner I use is cloth backed (2 layers) so that the glue doesn't eat at the foam and crumble. Much improved from factory style.
Savings: If your headliner in good condition and the foam backing don’t tear away when headliner is removed, there can be a saving of $100.

2. Minor Rebuild: 80% of the tops in the 80's or older will require this service to renew. Replace the inner reinforcement burlap strengthening material. This is found under the vinyl and can be seen if headliner is removed. This provides the real strength to the top and prevents wind noise and water leaks. A foam layer is then glued to the burlap to provide padding. All of number one is then performed Add $150

3. Major Reconstruction: 80% of the tops in 70's usually require this additional services to renew. Replacement of the reinforcement webbing strips which are 5” wide running from side to side. This is necessary in order to keep the metal ribs aligned to the frame rail fastening points. These are glued and riveted to the ribs. All of number one and two are then performed. An additional $125

let me jump in here with a question or two. I think that there are lots of variables for a good fit but it seems very little information on where things should line up. Lets look at the rain gutters..There is one running down the windshield frame and one on the targa top sides. Should the bottoms be aligned where they meet? If so this would be a good starting point for fitting the front rubber seal. Next, How should the top fit between the windshield and the targa bar? Slightly lower? Higher? [i doubt that] or flush? You could use a yard stick to ck that out. Then of course..centering of the top. I think I read somewhere that the top should not touch the rear targa bar because it will rub the finish off. So what should the front and rear gap be? Anyone have the facts on these questions?

Ron,

You raise some good questions. Unfortunately I don't have any answers to them. :(

I will say this though. The trailing edge of my targa seems to fit quite nicely. The edge itself is not exactly straight, but that is more of a recovering. Other than that, it sits nicely in place, practically flush with the bar, maybe a tad on the high side, but it looks right. Also, it doesn't quite touch the bar either. It rests just a bit in front of it, so no worry of paint rubbing off.

The leading edge is where MY issue is. It actually seems as though the downward curves on begin too soon. It looks as though if I could un-curve them, flatten them out somewhat, the top would set right down where it's supposed to be.

You can see this best in my original post here, in the second picture. In this pic, you can see a flash from my camera in the garage window behind the car. the area between the flash and the outer edge of the targa just seems to have too much of an arc to it. If I could flatten this out, on both sides, I'm thinking the top would lay down better and fit just right.

Randy

You can see in this pic what I meant by the arc of the targa. The outer edge just seems to curve a lot tighter than the body line of the car. If I could flatten this out somewhat, it looks as though it would fit better.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1112800102.jpg

Randy

I see what you are talking about. But if the rubber seal is sitting high, then you are effectively making the distance from one side to the other longer (inside lanes on the track vs outside lanes ) and the top is still the same size so it doesn't fit down close to where it should. If the top is flush or a 'c' hair below the windsheild frame then the curve might fit better. Looks like its snug where the latch is pulling it down. The other think I've pondered is..if the top sits low then the side rubber will be lower and more then likely fit the window better. We all do the same thing. The top doesn't fit right so we raise the window frame. Wish I knew or had a picture of a proper fitted top. Wonder how your top would fit with the rubber seal removed..I know it would drop way low but the curve might fit better.

Randy,
Did you fix it?

I still think something is goofy... Those rain gutters just don't seem right...

Targa top shorties
 

1. There is no adjustment of rain gutters.
2. If the windshield header seal is not low enough in the corners the top will bow at corners.
3. If webbing reinforcement in worn out there will be a big suck down at latch area with a bow at either side.
4. Tops were only meant to last 15 to 20 years before they were to be be completely rebuilt.
5. Most wind noise, 98% are related to tops, not front windshield header seal.
6. All side seals purchased, at least that I have seen, are 3/16" to long. This results in damage to the rear of the seal. The fix: with a razor knife remove some rubber.
7. All tops 20 years or older need inner reinforcement replaced. The factory material was only burlap after all.
8. Around 1988 model year the factory went to a new environmentally friendly glue. Problem is the new formula breaks down in to an oily substance in 10 or 12 years. Now there is nothing to hold the vinyl to the frame. The result burlap needs to be replaced.
9. It is critical for tops to be kept square in the restoration process, for any activity beyond reskin. If tops are no square when rebuilt, they square themselves on car but now slats and clips don't line up. This means air leaks. There are three different fixture needed to cover different years.
10. Proper size front windshield header seal has not been made for 10 years. Seal now provided are 20% to big and are actually 1990 and newer seals.

Dan,

"6. All side seals purchased, at least that I have seen, are 3/16" to long. This results in damage to the rear of the seal. The fix: with a razor knife remove some rubber."

I assume you mean cut the length of the side seals by 3/16" at the rear of the seal where it meets the Targa roll bar seal?

Also;
Should the bulb of rubber at the front of the side seals be rolled up towards and into the Top and glued in-place? (1981SC Targa)

Thanks; steve

I assume you mean cut the length of the side seals by 3/16" at the rear of the seal where it meets the Targa roll bar seal? YES

Also;
Should the bulb of rubber at the front of the side seals be rolled up towards and into the Top and glued in-place? YES Seal must be pushed as far back towards rear of car as possible.

VaSteve,

I have NOT fixed it yet. This job thing keeps interfering with my time off! ;)

I think I may be onto something though...

In Dan's post above, Item # 3. If webbing reinforcement is worn out there will be a big suck down at latch area with a bow at either side.

This could be an issue for me. I've had my top recovered a little over a year ago. I'd need to look at my paperwork, but I need to confirm that they DID replace the burlap reinforcement. The description above sounds like what I'm experiencing.

Also, my headliner was beginning to fall, so I've actually removed it and that trashed out foam stuff on the backside of the headliner. Wonder if this could be at least a part of my issue?

Dan?

Randy

Dan just redid my top, in fact it's "curing" in the sun at home and I'm at work. :( I checked this thread because I wanted to see if the rain gutters were supposed to line up with the ones on the car. They don't on mine, but do line up perfectly with the windows. I have not driven the car since I put the top on though...

Randy
If headliner is down you can look inbetween the metal slats and there you should see the reinforcement material. It should not be foam. Local shops often use conv. Top materal but it won't work for it is two way strech and then forces the webbing to act as a strent item. It then goes bad.

I've got nothing to add other than it's now pretty much crystal clear to me who will rebuild my Targa top when the time comes.

Thanks for all your help Dan!

A little bit of an update. Had a few free minutes tonight so I thought I would try something. Just for kicks, I removed the driver's side seal from the top and did a fit test. The results were somewhat interesting...

1.) Driver's side - without seal:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742750.jpg

2.) Passenger's Side - WITH seal:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742803.jpg

3.) Driver's side - without seal:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742845.jpg

4.) Passenger side - WITH seal:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742886.jpg

5.) Driver's side - without seal:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742936.jpg

I think it's time to consider replacing the bar seal, whattaya think?
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1114742985.jpg

Randy