Loren-
Great information! That would definitely make sense why empirical tests show greater throttle response and fuel economy - advanced timing lends itself to that experience and feeling. How do you identify "inaudible pinging / detonation"? Is there a way to document it without the use of a knock sensor? Can you read it on spark plugs? How can we determine if we are harming our engines without recognizable, audible knocking?
Thanks,

Doug

Essentially, they must or risk detonation.

I have no problem with Loren's "dissertation" except, I thought this was pretty much common knowledge, it certainly was on the 944 lists I used to frequent. Chips really only re-map ignition and increase rev-limit slightly. The reason that's all they can do is pretty basic ... it does little good to add more fuel without adding more air and you can't add more air by just replacing a chip.

(On the other-hand turbo models really can benefit (HP-wise, but only to a point) from chipping because you can increase boost and use chipping to increase fuel, and re-map ignition.)

Any substantial increase in power will require more than simply changing a chip ... TANSTAAFL.

Jerry M
'78 SC

Speaking of raising awareness - How can I check to see if I have an aftermarket chip or an OEM?

Muchas Gracias.

Steve W *has* provided such info...do a search......

EDIT: here's one link->http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=146093&highlight=Steve+ W+AND+map

here's even a better one --> http://forums.pelicanparts.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94890&highlight=ignitio n+AND+fuel+AND+map

Look also to his textural offerings that speak to the same concerns...and how careful he is ...compared to the data he's uncovered by other makers....

I'll tip my hand.....I'll *bet* Vendor "A" is Steve Wong's.....

Wil ( out on a limb......)

Thank's Loren - So what's the number to Steve W. SO I can place my order A.S.A.P.?

One would hope that people would make informed decisions. I'm surprised that everyone doesn't know what chips do and the possible consequences by now.

As my professors used to say; "In the interest of completeness":

Is there anyone out there that doesn't know that putting a free flow exhaust on your car will lean out the mixture?

Is there anyone who doesn't know that turning an SC distributor (to advance the timing) advances the timing everywhere not just selected parts of the load-rpm matrix?

Is there anyone who doesn't know the engines are systems and that changing one part (say cams, exhaust, etc) requires retuning?

If I was this angry all the time about something I hope my friends would gently encourage me to get help.

-Chris

I actually caught mine pinging the other day (what an awful sound). I just bought a 92 C2 and it came with an Autoauthority chip installed (2,500 miles ago). I also have the original chip, which I will be re-installing when my car goes into the shop for its regular service in a week.

Don't get me wrong, I was very happy with my SW chip in my 84, but this chip is just not the right one. I think someone hit the nail on the head when they said that every chip manufacturer is different and you just have to find the right one. Maybe SW will send me a chip to replace the Autoauthority??? I will be a test subject. ;)

Risking some coarse feedback by repeating this.....but

... the two links I've posted in my previous response...is ...IMHO... a "must read" for those that are new to the Wong / Loren welterweight fights ...... :)

- Wil

Could it be I was baiting loren? . . . i've a big bucket o' popcorn here.




anyway, on other stuff here...
'In many cases, the "pushed" timing maps have advanced values which
may result in inaudible pinging/detonation under certain loads, "

Whenever anyone suggest ' pinging/detonation " you are to go screaming for cover. . . right? . . .be AFRAID, be VERY AFRAID . . .
:rolleyes:

Detonation is nothing more than a rapid rise in pressure. Small, "inaudible pinging/detonation" is just that; small.

Pinging/detonation is like driving over chunks of concrete (thinking of nostatic today) . ... Sure, you don't want to hit large chunks of concrete . . .that'll leave a mark.
But, the inaudible chunks of concrete we run over? . .. I'm not going to worry about those. Tires can take a certain amount of pressure, and so can pistons.

As I said...I don't know for a fact if Vendor A is Wong..but A is clearly not running the same level of aggressiveness as the others....

Steve will custom burn anything you want....so if you (yourself) wish to assume extra risk, I'm sure it's "available".

I'm simply trying to illustrate that there are differences among tuners. Perhaps at some point Steve himself will chime-in and add to the discussion.....

Wil

Loren,

Thank you for the empirical data. I always thought that both you and Steve W. had valid points that were not necessarily mutually exclusive.
With this information, I will make sure that chip I have Steve burn for my car does not exceed the timing specs you have mentioned.

W

Thanks Loren ! I have to read all this chip crap for years now i,m glad you took the time to prove that a chip does nothing or allmost nothing for a car. These tests were done 10 years ago by an english magazine allready and the results were the same. Most did nothing at all and some even made things worse.
Even if they will give you 5 hp how would you feel that anyway :rolleyes: I hope telling the truth won,t get you banned again ;)

Cheers,

Isn't this the same spam post that was closed on Rennlist??

So, is that what happened?

Thanks for trying to save us from ourselves, Mr. Nader. ;-)

JP

Let's not get it nasty......this has happened too many times....

I appreciate Loren's *data*....we usually don't ( didn't ?) appreciate Lorens's delivery style.

Loren...I ask again...is there a problem with vendor A's approach to "tweaking", and can you accept the fact that a tweaks to both ignition timing and advance curves...if not done aggressively...is the same as what hot rodders did with carbs,etc.

It's all a matter of "degree"...let's not say everyone is the same.

- Wil

blah blah blah

I installed a chip in my ol' 75 and it came with a 993 engine attached! LOL

Excellent write-up! This means I can get basically the same power on my SC..
-Jasper

So...my No Bad Days chip is gonna kill me right? OK...here, hold my beer.....I'll just flip the switch and plug in the old stocker one....

I'M ALIVE....OHHHHHHHHH THANK YOU SWEET JESUS< PRAISE THE LORD AND PASS THE AMMUNITION.....

I need to pass some gas now....
G'night....

beer and bunny ears again Mike?