Front Polygraphite Bushings

patkeefe · 05-04-2005, 01:48 PM

I have about 1000 miles on my rebuilt suspension now, and high speed corners are a bit squirrelly. The Readers Digest version is to conclude the erratic handling is due to the polygraphite bushings. There was a lot of jumping on the bumper during corner balance, and I notice when I park the car that I can get the front end to reach a different "equilibrium" by pulling up on the bumper or bouncing on the car. I guess this falls under the realm of repeatability. Damn things also squeak.

I also assume that this problem may in fact be cured to a large degree by installation of Elephant Racing bushings. So, I guess I'll order some and change them out, and hope this solves the problem. I can't really think of any other reason why I have this problem...but I am open to suggestion.

Pat

Navaros911 · 05-04-2005, 03:15 PM

Hmmm... I was looking into getting these bushings as well... are they very noisy? I'm not a big fan of noise from bushings.

Should I be getting second thoughts?

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

I put 1100 miles on mine this weekend, 200 of which were on the track and no squeaks at all. Use enough of the right lube and it's fine.

450knotOffice · 450knotOffice's Garage

RoninLB has over 50K miles on his polygraphite bushings and has no zerks, yet he says his bushings are quiet. He used a very sticky white grease from Performance Products, I believe.

I used a similar grease from a suspension bushing manufacturer and I can't imagine that stuff ever drying up.

beamonk · 05-05-2005, 05:08 AM

Mine work fine, although we had to custom fit them. Squeaked once for a while until I greased them, since then, no problems. I may pull one of two off this fall to inspect as well as the neatrix rear ones. It will be about 30k with lotsa track miles. Do you have Bilsteins? They do not bounce like other shocks.

thrown_hammer · 05-05-2005, 05:18 AM

No squeaks from my poly bushings. I greased the crap out of them. Went on a four hour road trip yesterday and still no squeaks.

Tyson Schmidt · 05-05-2005, 12:21 PM

Give it time. The grease, no matter what you use, will eventually squeaze out. Then the bearing will seize, and start breaking stuff.

I've seen it on half a dozen vehicles. Usually takes a year or so.

The extra $200 spent on the Elephant Racing Polybroze will pay for itsself by not ever having to take anything back apart in the future, and never breaking anything.

Tyson Schmidt · 05-05-2005, 12:25 PM

Here's what will eventually happen: Need Help Fast

aigel · aigel's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Tyson Schmidt
Give it time. The grease, no matter what you use, will eventually squeaze out. Then the bearing will seize, and start breaking stuff.

I've seen it on half a dozen vehicles. Usually takes a year or so.

The extra $200 spent on the Elephant Racing Polybroze will pay for itsself by not ever having to take anything back apart in the future, and never breaking anything.

I can only second that. The collars on the back of my A-arm bushings broke. The poly graphite stuff is garbage for this application. I have installed the Elephant bushings and am a happy camper now. No noises and a much smoother ride.

George

MotoSook · 05-05-2005, 01:03 PM

Seems the installation of the polygraphite bushings is the key to their performanace. Properly fitted (bushings "machined" to fit the a-arms) with a check to verify that the a-arms move freely without binding, the bushings seem to work well. I can understand how poorly installed bushings will cause problems...but I wouldn't rule out the p-bushings as an option.

In Pat's case, his a-arms appear to be binding and preventing "free motion" of his a-arms.

aigel · aigel's Garage

By the time you machine the bushings to fit and possibly even put grooves and zerk fittings on them, you are better off with the Elephant stuff. Time is money, at least in my book. No matter how good the poly things fit, the lubricant will be gone at some point and then you are left with the self-lubrication of the bushing. Good luck!

To each his own, but I have yet to see a car that doesn't squeak in the wintertime with the poly stuff after it has been in for a couple years or more.

George

MotoSook · 05-05-2005, 02:47 PM

You're right George...time is money. Money can't buy me time, but I still like to watch how I spend my money. It's a good thing I have a lathe 5 feet from my lift.

I'm not here to bash Chuck's product, so cool out...

Tyson Schmidt · 05-05-2005, 03:46 PM

Properly fitted or not, the grease will eventually squeaze out.

Penny wise and pound foolish, IMO.

patkeefe · 05-05-2005, 04:09 PM

Part of the problem is that I just redid the suspension, got all of the parts togeter, and had this together before I was aware of the advantages of the Elephant stuff. If I would have known up front how much I ended up spending on this project. I would have gotten them up front.

Since the rebuild, I have been researching the crap out of suspension. I also have new Bilstein Sports all around, 21/27 bars, new everything. I also lowered to Euro specs. You guys are seconding the opinion I already have in my mind regarding the polygraphite bushings. I am sure the front control arm is not misaligned, it is just bound by the bushings. Being that I was once a machinist, I am acutely aware of little things like misalignment and bushing fit. However, nowhere was I able to find any quantified data regarding fit specifications. I greasd em up, pushed them together and said "that's ok, I guess"

BTW, it was ok when I first put it together, but as the miles go by, the handling is deteriorating. I can't explain this in any other way except the bushings. I can also now understand why guys run HD fronts, and Sport rears with Bilsteins.

Pat

jyl · jyl's Garage

How much work would it be to replace your existing bushings with Elephant's polybronze bushings? Seems you could simply remove the nut at the upper strut mount, let the A-arms droop to unload the t-bar, then unbolt the front and rear A-arm mounts, slide them off the A-arm, and fit the polybronze bushings without the A-arms ever leaving the car. Use support under the A-arms, to avoid stressing the brake hoses and steering rack. I'm having some trouble visualizing this, but I think it would work, unless the sway bar prevents the A-arms from dropping enough to unload the t-bar.

Oh, I guess I would try to rule out the tires and the alignment, which are the only other things that I could imagine changing since you did the work.

patkeefe · 05-06-2005, 08:38 PM

John:
I think I will try to get the taper pins out from the ball joints, pull out the torsion bars, and remove the control arms. Providing I can get the ball joints free from the strut, which I lubed up pretty good when I put it together, this should be pretty straightforward. My concern is beating up the ball joints with the pickle fork. I ordered the Elephant stuff yesterday from our hosts.
I did jack up the front end this evening. The sqeaking from that was hideous. I'll try to get some photos from this adventure for poserity; perhaps they will be of benefit to others.
Pat

lateapex911 · 05-06-2005, 09:13 PM

Pat...I agree, get the arms off the car and onto a clean surface at work height. I just did Chucks bushings, and doing it on the car would be a nightmare.

I think your strut to a arm connection will come apart easily, and the pin should come out ok with the proper force. I doubt you will need to go to a pickle fork.

I would suggest getting the rear mounts from him as well. I can't imagine the stars aligning well enough that the motion would be as good using the stock mounts. Besides, they are reaaly cool looking!

450knotOffice · 450knotOffice's Garage

I'll be the first to admit that polybronze bushings appear to be a superior product compared to the old fashioned urethane bushings, but let me play the Devil's advocate for a moment.

It seems to me that polybronze bushings are a very new product on a very old car design. People have been replacing worn out rubber bushings with urethane on these A-arms for as long as a lot of us have been on this planet. If these bushings are as lousy, dangerous, and destructive as many make them out to be they would not have lasted as a viable replacement alternative for very long. Word would have gotten out long ago and a suitable alternative would have been found many moons ago.

What appears to be the case is that these bushings require patient fitting to the A-arms and a high quality specialized bushing grease. It seems that if these steps are taken then the bushings will perform well for a long time. On the other hand, if the bushings are just greased up with any old decent grease and slapped on, without first being fit, then they are doomed to fail very quickly.

An example would be RoninLB's car. His has polygraphite bushings and no zerks, but he fit the bushings to the car and used specialized bushing grease. The result, he says, is that he's got 50K miles on the car and no squeaks. I wouldn't call that a dismal failure.

OK, I'll take off the Devil's advocate hat now and admit that I'll probably replace my brand new polygraphite bushings with polybronze within the next two years because they seem to be a superior product, but for now I'll have to stick with what I've got.

89911 · 05-07-2005, 03:40 AM

Although the bronze bushing have several advantages, I would not completely rule out poly graphite bushing. I agree it has everything to do with the fitment. I've also added zircs exactly as the elephants are and never had any issues with squeaking. The polygraphite actually have graphite impregnated into them, so this may account how some actually need not lubrication. I pulled off my A-arms about 2 years ago when I added the zircs and could find no discernible wear from the prior 3 years with the original grease. The A-arm ends were polished to a high luster prior to final fitment in the bushings. Perhaps this with where some fail and leave a rough surface to abrade against the bushing. If you not good with this stuff, get the bronze ones. If you are, they still work.

RoninLB · 05-07-2005, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 450knotOffice

RoninLB has over 50K miles on his polygraphite bushings and has no zerks, yet he says his bushings are quiet.

ER bushings are a beautiful design, no question.

I did the install in pre-Pelican 1999 and the respected local knowledge was that they should be good for 40k mi on a street/DE 911. The bushings will probably then wear and slop can then be detected. The alignment change will become more conservative and not dangerous if the wear and alignment is ignored. Squeaks are routine and ignored on a mainly DE car.

My car is 99.9% street and I'm lucky for whatever reason. Only on extreme suspension throw do I get a squeak or for a few miles after a 6mo lay-up do I get itty bitty squeaks. I check for wear and I can't find any. I would think that wider wheels would load the bushings more than my 6"x4 do. My car will be at Kurt William's 911 meet next week on LI if anyone want to check my bs.

When I have the suspension apart again ER bushings will become a "while I'm in there". If I had to do it again from scratch it would be ER, no question. $ can be an understandable issue with some guys and then my Welt street bushings becomes a home run imo.

fwiw.. my brother has a West Side Lala land '88 street only/commuter 911. He rode in my car on his streets and feels they are tooo hard for his routine. He runs S-03's and drives like a NYC cab driver.