'70T questions

[Hoss3.0]

Hey guys, I've been watching this site for a long time and have been looking (on and off) for a good long hood as a first Porsche. I have found a nice example not far from home that is exactly what I'm looking for. It's not show car original or going to win any concourse but it appears to be very solid and runs well. I know enough to get a PPI done before handing any $ over but I have some questions about P-car ownership. My budget isn't huge but I am in a good career with excellent future earning potential, I have two small kids and a fairly new house all of which take up their share of the income. What I'm getting at is, an initial expense of about $9000 US is something I can live with now. But, I don't want to start pouring all my $ into a car that I can only drive half the year (damn snow). I would like to make a nice R-gruppe style driver out of it on my own. I am very mechanical and very willing. If for example I do an engine rebuild myself, what sort of cost am I looking at? Assuming mild HP upgrades and other required improvements (tensioners,etc...). I am only 35 and plan on having the car (or at least an early Porsche) for a long time. Should I jump in and spend the hard earned cash or wait until it's less of a strain. I thought that once I found the right car I would jump at it, now my conscience is playing tricks on me. The car has no rust, 103000 miles, non-original paint with minor blems, webers, one rebuild on engine (about 8-9 yrs ago), very good interior, 15x6 Fuchs (and orig. 14's), SSI's, new Dansk muff, "S" distr., Euro H-4's and some other minor stuff. One cylinder was poor on leak down test but rest were good.
Sorry for the long post, I'm confused.

[silverc4s]

Mike,
I feel your pain. The early cars are great, but it is an expensive proposition to restore all systems to mechanical perfection. It is even more expensive to include all of the cosmetics, of course.
The reality is that when you buy a 35 or so year old car, there will be a list of things to spend on developed shortly thereafter.
Unless there has been a RECENT major refurbishment of a system (engine, clutch, transaxle, brakes, suspension, steering, etc.) chances are good that some attention will be required in each area over the next few years.
It costs about $6000 to rebuild any 911 engine, minimum. The transaxle, $3000 min, pretty easy to drop $500 to $1000 into suspension, brakes, steering, exhaust upgrades, seats, and other such areas as you go.
As a suggestion, perhaps if you have $9000 to budget, you should try to find a (no rust) early car that has the potential to be what you want for 1/2 to 2/3 of your budget. A very good way to do this is through pre-purchase inspection, followed by negotiation with the owner on price vs repairs prior to purchase. Develop a relationship with a mechanic that you can trust to look at cars for/with you, and use that to get into a potentially good (for you) car.
I am sure you will get many other suggestions here as well. Enjoy the trip, keep records of your effort, and ASK QUESTIONS here when you need to...

[Hoss3.0]

Those numbers are more or less what I thought and expected. I will certainly be in a position to do any work in the next few years that's req'd. I just don't want to buy too soon, if I wait I could maybe afford a better one needing less. But I wouldn't get the satisfaction of getting into the car. I think that is what I realy want. I would love to say in ten years, "Yeah, I've got a great car that I put together myself". With a little help from Dr. "P", of course. I just dont want my desire to own one to cloud my judgement.

[silverc4s]

Sounds like you are on the right track...;-)

remember -> rust never sleeps

[randywebb]

will your career let you have the time to work on the car yourself?

and if you keep it 10 or 20 years, you can just get it driveable or keep it that way, and make it nicer every few years...

[FrayAdjacent911]

I'm in the '70T boat myself. I jumped in before really testing the waters. I know she's going to be a lot of work, but it will be fun, and the end result will be something I will love.

Luckily mine runs well. I need to clean the carbs and chase down some leaks. The tranny needs a rebuild as first and second like to grind a bit.

I'm definitely going to be cutting out and replacing some pans due to rust. It's just the extent of what needs to be done... and it's true... Rust doesn't sleep...

[Grady Clay]

Mike,

No your conscience isn’t playing tricks on you. You have serious responsibilities with kids, wife, house, etc. If you can pay cash for a 911 and not substantially dent your family reserve – go for it. If you buy a bargain it is easy to resell if you change your mind or find a better example. Include your family in the project and your wife is going to want a project also. It won’t be long before the kids are teens and you want them to have the same appreciation.

You didn’t say what year, model, body. Exactly what are you looking at?


Here is a Post I made earlier on another thread but it is appropriate here.

Quote:

First read this thread. It is very worthwhile having a clear understanding and agreement with the seller.
“Purchase agreement:”
the buying process



A good PPI is progressive; you start with the obvious and inexpensive and progress to the more difficult, time consuming and costly. Over the years I have taken in many 911s where we never wrote a repair order because a quick look-see sent the car down the road. On the other hand, after checking the sump and exhaust gas and much more, both a cranking compression test and cylinder leak test were in order to be sure of the condition.

There have been many threads on PPI and I would recommend you do a search on all of them and develop your own specific PPI sequence for this ‘71T Targa. Much of the preliminary stuff you can do yourself.

My own preference would be something like this:

1) LOOK – a careful visual inspection may stop the process without spending a dime. You are looking for prior crash damage and the quality of any repairs. You are looking for rust damage. Has it been repainted? Color change? What is the general condition of everything – carpets, upholstery, trim, glass, etc. Is the condition consistent or have some things been replaced, upgraded or updated? Look under the trunk carpet and floor mats (take them out for inspection.) What is the degree of originality? If something has been replaced, do you consider it an appropriate update? Look over all the paperwork. Is there provenance since new? What is the ownership, repair & service history? Is everything there – tool kit, jack, spare, Owners Manual, Targa top bag & latches, etc?

Additionally look at the tires and check pressures. Inspect the brake pads and rotors through the wheels. Are the lug nuts in good condition, center caps snug? Look at the visual condition of the batteries, connectors, and fuses. Look at the visual condition of the engine compartment – are all the hoses, hardware, insulation, etc. there and in appropriate condition? Any sign of a fire? Is the air filter cartridge clean? Does it look like the fuel filter, cap, wires, etc. have been serviced? Is the oil clean and level appropriate? Is the exterior of the carburetors clean and consistent (not just 25c car wash from the rear.) Any fuel or oil leaks?

A quick look under the rear will confirm an OEM muffler and good condition heat exchangers. Again look for signs of oil leaks including the oil tank.

Are the hood and deck lid lifts properly functioning? Do the trunk, engine and gas flap latches work properly? Do the doors operate properly and the restraint keep them open? Do the windows operate smoothly and fully? Does the key properly operate the door locks, ignition, glove box, and hood latch? Do the seats adjust properly both fore & aft and recline properly? Special note the condition of the screws that attach the recliner to the seat back. Do the seat belts work OK? Do the sun visors and mirrors adjust properly?

What is the condition of the Targa top? Does it come off, fold, unfold, and reinstall properly? When it is partially open, check for broken struts. What are the condition of the seals? Inspect with the side windows up and down. What are the condition of the seals for the trunk, doors, windshield, etc?

Does the accelerator pedal have any side play (wobble)? When you first push on the brake pedal note it’s position and apply pressure a second time. Does it pump up? Does the shift lever have any rotational play? Does the hand throttle work appropriately? Does the fresh air blower function properly on all speeds and does the control work? Do the heaters/defroster work properly? Does the windshield washer work? Do the wipers function properly on all speeds. Do all the lights work? Check turn signals, high-low beams, 4-way flashers, running lights, instrument lights, glove box light, and interior lights.


How does it drive? Does it drive straight or pull to one side? Do the brakes work smoothly on light application (no pulse feedback to the pedal)? Do they work properly on full use at high and low speeds? Does it feel like the brakes don’t fully release or “pump up?” Is there any sign of a “shimmy” or vibration at road speeds (50-65 mph)? How does it handle bumps and undulations in the road?

Does the clutch operate properly? Any noise when fully depressed? Does it fully release so it doesn’t grind going into reverse? Are the syncros OK? Is the shifting proper, both up-shift and down-shift, in every gear? Any rolling noise or whine? Any “clunks” when on & off the gas?

Does the engine start and run properly? Is idle OK? Any hesitation on accelerating? Will it run full throttle to redline in 2nd and 3rd gear? Any noises? Any smoke? Try a long deceleration from high revs in 3rd gear just using compression to slow the 911, then apply power and see if it smokes.


Now you are ready to take it to a mechanic or few for a repeat of the above and a PPI.

2) Most reputable mechanics will give you a thorough look-see and not continue if it is obviously an undesirable purchase. With the 911 up in the air inspect the underside as you have the top side. Check for crash and rust damage and repair. Does it have the original struts and ball joints or have they been updated? Any sign of brake fluid leakage at the flex hoses or calipers? Do the wheels spin properly and have appropriate free-play in the front and none in the rear? Any sign of leakage from the fuel tank & lines, CV joints, transmission, and engine? Do a thorough inspection of the exhaust system.

This might be a good time to check the ignition timing and ignition with a scope and an exhaust gas test.

3) Note the condition of everything. Does anything look too new or out of place? Check for someone bending a rear control arm. Check the rear sway bar mounting and links. Check the condition of the clutch linkage, particularly the support cast in the transmission differential side cover. With a light check for contact between the clutch release arm and the pressure plate. Check the throttle cushion. Check the throttle linkage at the transmission bell-crank.

4) Drain the engine oil and carefully inspect the sump screen. Note if it has been recently off. Your mechanic should pay particular attention to the small area between the outer diameter of the screen and the case. A Radio Shack 10X hand microscope helps us old guys. Anything metal or plastic deserves attention. Many shops have a large “can opener” type tool to disassemble an oil filter. Carefully inspect the magnetic drain plugs in the sump plate and oil tank. Your little finger can feel inside the oil tank for rust debris. A bore scope is very useful for looking at inaccessible places. Install fresh oil, a new filter, and new sump gaskets & Nyloc nuts.
Check the transmission magnetic drain plug. Note the condition of the lubricant. Remove the shift pivot piece and inspect the gears for rust using a light on the end of a flex-wand. Fish around with a little magnet. Replace with a new pivot gasket and fresh lubricant.


By now you have a pretty good idea if you want to continue or not. You have invested some labor, mostly your own, and some inexpensive parts & lubricants. If you walk from the deal, the owner should be happy with the information and fresh lubricants.

5) Cranking compression and cylinder leak tests both reinforce each other while testing slightly different aspects of the engine. Do a Pelican search. I prefer to do the leak test first while removing one sparkplug at a time in firing order sequence. This prevents any little piece of carbon from getting on an exhaust valve and fooling the test. The cranking compression should be last with all the sparkplugs out and the ignition disabled. If the tests indicate a low cylinder, put everything back together and go out for some extended spirited driving. Repeat the tests. Never make a decision based on a single test.

6) Remove the valve covers and inspect the cam lobe surfaces. Check for proper valve adjustment. Torque the head nuts. Torque the rocker arm shafts. Check the cam timing. Reinstall covers with new gaskets and hardware. This is really maintenance for you but serves well during a through PPI.

7) Have the mechanic do an extended test drive with you as passenger. Have him explain all the good, bad, and ugly. What is normal for the age and mileage and what maintenance and repairs are to be expected in the short run. Don’t expect him to be a clairvoyant.

End quote

Depending on the model and year I will edit to suit your situation.

Best,
Grady

[cnavarro]

I'm in the same boat with my '70 T. Engine is in tip top shape, 1% leakdown across the board with verified original 88k miles (now 92k). I now have the entire exhaust system off and am swapping on SSI's and a Dansk Sport muffler. CVs started clacking, so new half shafts and CVs are now on their way. Put the car on a Sun engine analyzer and the ignition system was pretty tired (original wires and what looked like original plugs). New plugs, nology wires (will be placed on there shortly), new coil (had a FLAPS branded one on there), as well as all the essentials. I've already swapped out all the vac lines for the sportomatic and replaced the gear fluid with synthetic. Long story short, i'm pretty sure the car will need more work mechanically, but one step at a time. It does need minimal bodywork (has zero rust) and a respray, but we have our first child on the way and money has to be spent cautiously :-). But there's nothing like an early 911 in my book :-) Go for it!

[Hoss3.0]

What I'm reading is that I need to have a good look and know just what I'm actually looking at. That, I can do. I read the entire reply above (thanks Grady, you are extremely knowledgable) and basically followed those guidelines when I bought my last car. And that was a 2001. I just assumed everyone inspected used cars like that so I think I'll be OK. I've just heard so many bad stories that I was kind of reluctant to lay out the cash and get burned. But I agree, I will not loose anything from a solid 911, it will more or less hold it's value. The car I'm looking at is a clean '70T, unmolested, with original equipment that appears to be looked after (see first post). I'm not dealing with whale tales on a '70 or turbo flares that dont fit. No slant nose conversions or anything wild like that. The owner is very honest and straight forward and isn't even sure if he wants to sell. So he's not tying to unload a rust bucket on me or anything. Charles, it sure sounds like we are in the same boat, my kids are three and a half and one next week. Thanks, I think I will buy the car. You guys will be the first to know...that's if my wife doesnt kill me (sic).

[silverc4s]

The REALLY NICE thing about Porsches compared to most other sports cars, is that when you fix or restore some area properly , that is generally the last time you will need to address that area of the car.
For example, this is a very different experience from the Brit cars & bikes that I mis-spent my wayward youth caring for...;-)