what does it cost to get into cart racing?

The current thinking on sub straps is that two are the way to go, and they go under your thigh, and out the seat at the lap belt holes. That is a 6 point system

A 5 point system uses one sub strap and it shoud prodeed down and backwards. It requires a hole in the seat for proper geometry.

I need to check on this, but I *Think* the ultimate is the 7 point system, which include both versions of the substrap.

Mounting points for belts cn be the stock threaded holes if they wind up in the right spot, or, a through hole backed by a thrust plate , a thrust washer, a lock washer and a bolt. Grades are speced by the requirements of the sanctioning body, but in abscence of that, but following the harness suppliers instructions is the way to go.

My seat back braces is a plate about a foot wide and 9: tall bolted to the seat, with a clevis arrangement welded on. A 2" x 2" square steel tube mounts to a bar on my rollcage. I used removable pins and made things adjustable incase I want to have another driver in the car. Lower mounts are just as important!

Kart thread

It's not just seat time. You can spend thousands on equipment but equipment has its limitations. Track safety starts with the organizer and its participants. Some people say 'upgrade the driver before upgrading the car'. I think this applies not only to performance, but safety as well. Seat time by itself won't inherently make you safer. Going to the track with the right attitude can. Once ego and testosterone take over, the red mist settles in...

What a seatback brace is, for Matthew and others (hard to take a photo of mine, since it's in a dark, cramped area of the car): mine is a steel plate about 18" wide and 10" from top to bottom, shaped sort of like an angular semi-C that is angled to conform exactly to the shape of the seatback. Welded to the back of that plate is a 2" steel tube about a foot long that passes through another tube with an i.d. just a mite larger than the 2" tube's o.d. That tube bolts, via a strong bracket, to the horizontal rollbar brace. Mate the two tubes, set the plate where it exactly and firmly abuts the seatback, drill a hole through both tubes and insert a large, strong bolt and you have a seatback brace. If you hit something while spun backward, the brace prevents the seat from moving aft, assuming it's an otherwise survivable impact. A PCA Club Racing driver was killed at Lime Rock several years ago because he didn't have one and spun at the end of the main straight--it was raining. A number of PCA regions now require them.

Several companies sell readymade versions, none of which I like because I consider them too small--small enough, in fact, to potentially poke right through a fiberglass seatback.

Stephan

Yeah, the danger to a seatback brace is that it is a fixed piece of metal pointed right at your spine. It also stops the seat flexing (and absorbing energy) when it makes contact. I've got a Brey-Krause one that I haven't installed yet. I want to put a lot of high density padding between it and the seat when I do install it, but I'm still looking for a good installation to copy.

The high-density padding sounds like a good idea. I'm gonna try that, if nothing else put some semi-flattened semicircular rollbar padding at the angles of the brace. thanks!

Stephan

Jack, what about some interior shots of BB2?

Here's what I'm planning on using. Maybe two thicknesses from one piece.

Perfect. I was just about to post a query asking if anybody knew a source for flat sheets, since a quick Google search didn't turn up anything.

Stephan

As a relative newbie to both these cars and DE's, I have learned a lot from this thread. I just did a DE at Pacific Raceways yesterday. A lot of us were discussing the safety aspect of all of this, what with the Carrera GT accident fresh in everyones's minds. My car currently has Corbeau Classic II seats, a fire extinguisher, and I wear a helmet of course, as required. I think a roll bar and some harnesses are in my near future; I am certainly hooked enough on DE's to want to continue to run them. With that in mind, it is worth it to me (and my wife) to significantly upgrade the safety of my car. Funny how that doesn't come to mind for a purely street car. How many folks think to themselves "I will never track it, so I don't need all of that"? The street is obviously more dangerous.

That said, I can certainly understand why there are not more stringent requirements at DE's. Any special equipment requirements as far as roll bars, harnesses, etc., would keep most folks away. I find it somewhat ironic that Porsche builds a car that will perform at a level that seems most with track experience deem to be unsafe for that very car. Why have they never installed cages, fire suppression, harnesses, and the like in their cars? It's a strange paradox when you really think about it. Like I said above, I think the street is more dangerous than the track. Especially in light of the fact that those who never track their cars still explore the limits of its performance somewhere. With that in mind, why don't the manufacturers build in race car like safety features in such high performance cars?

Because we Americans are lazy?

Errrrr, OK, that's not exactly right! LOL...

The answer is that the number of cars that see the track, versus the number of cars that are sold, (In a specific model run) is small. And the fact is that most people don't want to be bothered with anything that requires effort. Witness the 20 year struggle to get the general pblic to buckle up. How hard is it to wear a seatbelt?

So, airbags to the rescue.

Fire systems? Too much maintenance.

Roll cages?? Too much intrusion, and too much weight to kill CATE numbers for the average driver.

It might be ironic that the car is fast enough to seemingly require extra safety gear, but truth be told the average high perfomance car owner sees little of the cars capabilities, almost as seldom as the average SUV driver sees mud.

Couple of thoughts come to mind.

Locally at PIR I have seen a car totaled almost every open track day sponsored by the track's school that I have attended. Some close enough to me that I wondered how I drove through it unscathed .

You can't mandate common sense. There are many folks at any track event that obviously (or not) shouldn't be there either because of a lock of common sense or a lack driving skills or both typically.

No reason what so ever for anyone to bend a fender at a DE day.

Many, many 911s burn up on the street from fairly common problems. Just as common on the track. Fire equipemnt should be something we all have available.

Jeff mentions it above.
More of us will be injured on the street than ever will on the track.

After a few years of on and off trakc days I had a car built. It has a halon fire system, a roll bar, steel valve stems, race seats and a fuel cell. I maintain the car at a high level and intentionally continue to better my driving skills and education.

Good tools/cars/equipment will only keep you out of half the trouble. Gaining the skills and experince to use the tools we have is the other half or more of staying safe.

Old saying, "beware the Indian not the arrow".

While I think that makes sense, its been my experience that its unlikely to work. On some tracks its reasonable to keep speeds down, but at my favorite, the Glen, I could hit 100 in my generally stock S4 after tracking in and before hitting the S's. 120 was common exiting the S's. No reasonable amount of tight chicanes along there would fix that in some cars.

I stopped driving my Audi on the track and bought my 911 when I realized the last time I was at the Glen that I was dramatically overdriving the safety my car could provide. 135 entering the bus stop was normal for me, as was the high 120's on the front straight. Not much room for error there.

The thing that always bothered me at driving events was running in lower green and yellow run groups with inexperienced drivers in extremely powerful cars (part of the problem running with an Audi organization). Modded S4's with 350hp, and 9 inch wide sticky rubber on all four corners was very common even in the novice green group. These people were dangerous on the track, and I was nervous on every run group until I was soloed on all the tracks I drove on, and was running with instructors and other experienced drivers. It came down to predictability -- these people driving extremely high powered cars were unpassable on the straights but would screech down to near stop in the corners causing backups around them, wouldn't give pointbys causing red haze among all the other drivers. They drove unpredictably which made it dangerous for everyone else.

I think whats needed for the best safety in a driving organization is a few things:

1) a licensing system. People have to prove they can drive safely at a given level to drive with those run groups. People can't be bumped up because there is no room. Be firm on those. Don't automatically take people's word about what level they were at in another organization (perhaps a SCCA DE certification here? They do amateur and pro racing licenses, why not DE?)

2) Strict modification and power limits in each of those classes. The fact of the matter is most people doing DE's are doing it in their street cars. DE's as an inexpensive way to get your feet wet in motorsports would be killed by mandatory safety equipment requirements. People have the right to do what they want to their cars, but DE organizers have a right to keep the other people on the track safe as well. People may not like it, but if you're a novice, bring your Saab wagon to learn on, don't push the limits of your new midlife-crisis Z-06 until you know what you're doing, otherwise it'll be an endlife-crisis car.

3) Restrict driving with instructors to lower class cars. Instructors are human beings and can make errors in judgement about getting into cars that aren't safe. These aren't professional instructors either.

4) Liberal use of the black flag. If someone is a bottleneck on the track, tell them sorry. Slow cars and slow drivers don't need to be a hazard, but people need to give pointbys, and be honest with themselves that someone else in a slower car may be faster. That was a real big problem with the Quattro club with very fast A4 drivers, and ego-driven S4 drivers who wouldn't give them the pointby. (Hell, personally I prefer chasing those people -- I always gave my friend in his A4 the pointby because he was a much better driver than I was, I drove better chasing him than leading!) Give a few "slower traffic" flag warnings, then get the person off the track. If an instructor is in the car, reevaluate the appropriateness of using that instructor in the future.

That last time I was at the Glen, a modded 5-series in the green group managed to do an endo off a tirewall and pancaked itself, with an instructor in the car. Everyone was okay, but took a trip to the hospital. That car shouldn't have been in the green group, and a number of people in that group, from what I'd seen, should've been shown the door long before that happened.

I think there's room for class-based licensed non-competitive motorsports. Everyone will be safer, and its an even better path to getting people into real competitive motorsports.

James,

Thinking about this thread kind of reminds me of the different approaches to airline security-- one school of thought says search for dangerous STUFF, one school of thought says search for dangerous PEOPLE.

Requiring that everyone have an SA95 and a fire extinguisher and a tech inspection is OK, however, what I think will ultimately prove more effective is greater control by DE organizers.

Also, stringent equipment requirements can be a financial and logistical deterrent to having more participants in the DE. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having someone who just bought a bone-stock Carrera 4S (I was driving my Uncle's this weekend) take it out on the track, WITH a helmet, WITH natural fiber, long-sleeve clothing, and most importantly, WITH an instructor for guidance AND to rein in the student's enthusiasm.

It's up to the club's instructors and leadership to WATCH what's happening on the track and to COMMUNICATE with the radios if someone is driving too aggressively for their particular group. Guys with big-horsepower cars who gas it on the straights and become a rolling chicane in the corners will get taken aside, WITH their instructors, and lectured about energy management and closure rates.

There should be no reason, for example, why someone with a car with speed potential of 150 on the track should be able to use the DE as the opportunity to drive that speed IN THE BEGNINING GROUPS. A graduated speed limit-- Green, 90; Yellow, 100, etc. Also, we could have progressive levels of mandatory safety equipment, e.g. when you get to the unlimited speed group, it's a full cage and fire suit.

Anyway, the good DE's I've been to all emphasize that it's NOT racing-- and yet there are inevitably folks who get too enthusiastic. That's a perfectly natural reaction, that must be ANTICIPATED by the DE organizers, and MANAGED for the participant's enjoyment and the safety of everybody.

Unfortunately, that's a hell of a lot harder than saying you have to have a roll cage. But it's the only thing that will really work.

A fish rots from the head.

One of my favorite sayings - and one that I take to heart.

When I look at track days - I look at who is running the event. If they take an active role in the management of the event - then good for them, but even better for me.

I've been to DE's where the chief track instructor went out in borrowed cars and drove different run groups jut to make sure everybody was playing by the rules. You need that, and you need someone with a backbone that is going to send people home that don't leave their ego at the door or drive beyond their level. Which brings up another point where my saying fits.

It rots from my head too - I don't drive my car at 10/10ths. In fact more like 7/10ths with the occassion at 8/10ths. I keep it within my comfort level - screw anybody else. As far as I am concerned, I am in charge of my own safety and is one of the key reasons that I do a majority of the work on my own car. Sure I have the tech inspection done at my own wrench - but I go over everything 2-3 times before it hits the track.

Wow John - I was writing that just as you were posting yours.

I'll also agree with you on the high HP cars. Just because the car can hit 165 doesn't mean it has to. I think this is going to be more and more of an issue with some of these big HP cars out there.

Jeremy,

Great minds rot from the head at the same time!

That is a great saying, I have adopted it into my personal lexicon.

I like John Luetjen's idea about chicanes, also. The skill in DE is managing the braking, cornering, and acceleration part of it, not holding the throttle to the floor-- I'd LOVE to see more chicanes on the courses (maybe just one straight or two-- I actually use these to RELAX during a race)

I think we need to break this problem down further.

Earlier in the thread, I separated "racing" from DE's. Now I suggest we define "What is a DE?" This form of recreation is exploding in popularity, and we don't get a handle on it soon, I think there will be some pain. In addition to the obvious pain of bent metal and bones, insurance costs will increase, dragging track fees with them.

To the layman, a "Driver's Ed" event sounds like someone driving a beat-down Neon with a plywood "Student Driver" sign on the roof. In reality, it's matrix of cars and drivers. The drivers can be anywhere from someone who hase never seen a track other than watching the Indy 500 on TV, to accomplished race car drivers. The cars range from rental cars, to full-on race cars with 800+HP. Unfortunately, the skill-to-car ratio is not linear; I've seen track virgins driving extremely well-prepared cars, and instructors driving rented econoboxes.

The biggest challenge for a DE organizer is how to reconcile this matrix. To date, this has been done by separating cars into run groups based on skill level, and dictating passing rules accordingly. From what I've read on various DE-related threads on various forums, is that California seems to have some of the most liberal (if you'll excuse the redundancy) DE rules, with the exception of PCA, which seems to keep people more reigned in. I wonder if California events are more or less safe than others? I don't have stats handy, but until this recently, incidents at NorCal tracks seemed rare, yet I read that at some events elsewhere, bent metal is common. Is it because California tracks tend to be more 'open' with liberal runoff room? Is there a source for these numbers?

I think we need to step back and ask "what is the purpose of a DE?" At face value, it would appear that the intention is to allow people to drive their cars on a race track in order to learn better car control, hence the "education" part of the name. I think this is actually true for a certain percentage of attendees; these people do one or two events in their (usually) mostly-stock cars, and usually under instruction.

Ok, that was easy.

Where it starts to get interesting is when people start getting deeper into the sport. When you've moved up into the intermediate or advanced group, is there still "E" in DE? One could argue "yes," but the educational model evolves from 'formal' education with an instructor to 'self study.' In reality, I have seen behavior that could be construed as racing. Sometimes the stewards catch it, usually they don't.

Regarding slowing cars down: SCCA does a 'street school' DE at Thunderhill (and I'm sure other tracks) and they put a chicane near the end of the front straight, so you have to all but stop to get through it; I pull into my garage faster than I was able to get through it. Great idea from a safety standpoint, but I haven't know anyone to attend one of these street schools twice.

Ok, so trying to work in one window and type this in another window obviously isn't working...

There was a chicane at the Texas Motor Speedway DE I did at last year's parade. Even then I was almost at 140-145 before braking in my buddies C2. My closure rate on a Boxster was approaching the "scary" side - my internal warning bells were going off and I slowed a little on the subsequent laps :) ...

That being said - I noticed the rules, especially the passing rules being much more lax at that DE vs our region in Southwest Florida.

I always thought that "E" was "Event". These are not professional instructors, its a fallacy to pretend the events put on by the major organizations are "Education". They're not, they're private track days, arranged for people to have fun driving their cars in ways they can't on the street.

There's enough education provided to novices to make them acceptably (arguably) safe on the track, and people tend to like calling them "Education" in the vain hope that if they stuff their car their normal insurance will cover it. The fact that the instructors are not professional, and do not have a managed set of skills and teaching credentials means its really wishful thinking to consider them "education".

Someone had brought up the effectiveness of the foam collars or donuts. I see many instructors and students utilizing these devices but actually just heard from the safety head at Road America that tests have actually shown that these can do more harm than good in an accident. The tests that he has seen show that they can act as a pivot point causing your chin to roll over them and actually causing a greater extension of the neck.

Has anyone else heard or read such reports? Any imperical evidence would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

That's a good point; I've always heard "Education"

I guess we still need to define the purpose of the events in order to come up with equipment and event guidelines.

From the PCA site link "Club Racing"

at the bottom of the page

The Porsche Club of America also offers an alternate on track driving experience called Driver's Education (DE). The mission and purpose of the DE Program is to provide a safe, structured and controlled teaching and learning environment. The PCA DE Program is designed so the participant can improve his or her driving abilities and acquire a better understanding of vehicle dynamics and driving safety at various tracks around the country.

PCA minimum standards

http://www.pca.org/drivers_ed/standards.html

This speaks volumes:

http://isaacdirect.com/images/Donut.jpg

A donut helps with muscle fatigue but it only works in compression, so it can't hold your head on.

There's still an emphasis on education at the PCA events I've attended. Recently the focus has moved into the white (intermediate) group. One region has a classroom session for white drivers and another had instructors walk down the pit lane and offer to ride with uninstructed drivers.

No doubt. As an east coaster I'm surprised by the "parade laps" and other scary stuff I read about here. I'd bet we have less OTE's due to reduced runoff.

Here's what a lot of Watkins Glen looks like. If you go off, you will hit something. Large styrofoam blocks are strategically placed for DE's and they've made some recent changes to help run off but it's still tight in many places.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1118075690.jpg

Video of the Glen.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-autocross-track-racing/224971-tour-watkins-glen.html

I am in the same boat as the starter of the thread. Daily driver and DE car at the same time.

After spending the weekend researching the subject this is what I have decided to do:

-DAS roll bar (bolt in, 100% reversible)
-Isaac intermediate
-6 point harness
-Nomex suit
-fire estinguisher

I already have Recaro PP seats and I am still on the fence for the window net (with no full cage there is no protection on the right side).

Still there are a lot of questions in my mind (which harness... 2' 3'? where/how do I attach the harness to the chassis?) but be sure that I am going to the next DE with all the proper gear.

All this obviously on top of all the other good things (8/10th driving, brakes, susp etc up to par, no-ego etc) that people here have indicated.

Come out to any of the BMW CCA driving schools in California and say that.

I'd have to agree with SergioK on this one.

I credit 90% of my track driving skills to BMWCCA Instructor education. Though I don't technically "race" so you can't measure my speed or skills, I do think I drive pretty well.

BMWCCA events included classroom time (more for beginners), and close one-on-one in-car instruction with radios (so you aren't yelling at each other). The instructors are highly skilled, and very patient. They also take the time to customize their teaching as you advance and need to work on specifics (hitting the line, throttle steering, etc...).

IMHO, I'd rather have a BMWCCA instructor teach me in my car than find myself behind the wheel of a Ford Mustang at Bondurant then try to translate those skills into rear-engine techniques later!

Both BMWCCA and PCA instructors have a lot to offer.

Oh, please. In my work as a car writer, I've ridden with and been informally instructed by a dozen or more truly world-class racecar drivers over the years,from Eric Carlsson to Hurley Haywood to Tom Kristensen. I've also been enthusiastically doing DEs for several years now, and I can tell you that typical DE instructors and seriously good drivers/intructors are on two differen planets, if not two different solar systems.

I have a friend and neighbor who is a Quattro Club (or whatever it's called now) DE instructor. He's never been in anything faster or more race-prepped than his own moderately modified quasi-S6, and he's scary enough that several people in our local ambulance corps (where he and I are both volunteer drivers) refuse to ride with him.

I don't mean he's the paradigm for all DE instructors, I just mean it's a seriously mixed bag.

Stephan

Some very valid points have been raised in this thread.

. I disagree with that statement, Ive been instructing going on 7 years, and have been through instructor programs with organizations other than PCA.

BMWCCA has a top notch DE program, I believe PCA would do well to emulate them.

The point of these instructor programs are to instill a set of skills, or methods to allow the student to safely explore the limits of his or her vehicle.

Most use mentor/student simulations. allowing the prospective instructor to assess personalities, and tailor their instruction to suit.

PCA has just in the past year or two instated a National instructor certification program. This is intended to level the playing field regarding instructors.

I havent read all of this post, just the preceding two pages, so I hope Im not re-hashing someone else views.

as to the above posted safety equipment

[QOUTE]
-DAS roll bar (bolt in, 100% reversible)
-Isaac intermediate
-6 point harness
-Nomex suit
-fire estinguisher
[/QOUTE}

with a six point harness you need a seat that works with it, the nomex is fine if overkill...

the 2.5LB extunguisher has a farts chance in a high wind of putting out a fire..

if your on fire STOP AT THE NEAREST FLAG STATION

of course there are dedicated instructors, and there are those that want to sign students off ASAP

yikes I havent contributed this much to a thread in awhile

hope it makes sense

That is precisely my point. DE's are about getting track time, not driving instruction, regardless of organization. Quattro is top-notch, just like BMW and PCA, but you can't compare what you get there to a real race school... and the safety records support that.

I've had some very good instructors at DE's before, but a few good instructors and a few very talented drivers does not mean students tend to get a real education where performance driving is concernerd. Any idiot can drive 120mph around a track when nothing goes wrong, driving education is about teaching people what to do when something does go wrong. Most DE organizations focus on "the line", being smooth and things like that -- intended, legitimately to keep you out of trouble, but focus very little on improving skills when trouble finds you. Unfortunately people have died as a result.

Some of the best instructors I've had were the ones who said "this is a safe corner to go off, take it faster and risk spinning. Learn to control the car when that happens". DE's seem to focus on the "drive smooth to drive fast" mantra, and in my experience having run with a number of organizations over the years, the most important part -- teaching people how to control the 4000lbs machine they're driving -- is far too understated. A few emergency avoidance drills in the green group doesn't cut it.

I don't know what you consider to be a typical DE instructor.

I can tell you that the 'typical BMW CCA instructor' is typically someone who has come up the ranks of the BMW CCA driving school program. Someone who started out on the bottom rung and through demonstration of their skills and capability has eventually made it to the instructor ranks. Sure, any group is as weak as it's weakest link. But again, come out to any of the BMW CCA driving schools in California and see for yourself. SmileWavy

And you are judging their competence by exactly what previous experience or competence? Believe me, I don't mean to sound like I'm doing a mine's bigger than yours thing, because this 68-year-old wimp isn't, it's just that when you are saying these instructors are excellent, one should know what you're comparing them to.

This thread seems to have reached a point of asking exactly what these people, these "instructors," are expected to impart. I recently attended a commercial two-day DE event run by an organization that prided itself on not assigning instructors but on having whoever was available jump into whatever cars needed instructors. Fortunately, I was in a run group that could run solo, because after riding with three differen guys--"go here, no, go there, do this, no do that..."--I said the hell with it, lemme just work on it myself.

Stephan

I have had great instruction from 24 hours of Daytona winners and from factory 962 drivers. I have also had some rather suspect instruction. So I guess it really is a mixed bag...

Jeff

All window nets I have seen attach to the roll cage, top and bottom, in front there is normally a latch or seat belt buckle on top, and a cable/webbing from the lower bar on the window down to the door bar on the cage.

Without a cage, I think you would have a hard time mounting the net, unless you welded tabs to the door.

You may consider some Arm restraints, to serve some of the same function.

RE Instructors: Regardless of the skill they possess, some people are simply better at teaching at others. Two instructors, one has only driven track days, one is a F1 driver. The guy you as a student will get the most from is the one who is better teacher.

Tom
(who sucks at teaching)

Good point about teaching abilities. That goes for just about everything. Transferring skills and knowledge is a universal technique that not everyone is good at. The student also needs to be willing to learn, sometimes that is more important! It is one thing to say you want to learn, another to actually attempt to take in and put to use what you have been taught.

Jeff

What I wonder about is ABS on the track. Especially on low grip surfaces- like grass.

Ive had the experience of travelling backwards, at high speed over a skidpan in a 996 with both my feet jammed on the brake pedal, wondering when the car was ever going to stop. The passenger and i were able to discuss the matter in some detail before the car finally came to rest.

Look at the photos of the C-GT crash, clearly this was a high speed off. The grass leading up to the point of impact on the wall shows no evidence of vehicle retardardation. Theres hardly even evidence of tyre tracks. We all know that driver, apparently an experienced guy, would have been trying to point that car away from the wall and wash off speed.

Perhaps that state of the art Porsche, didnt allow him to steer or slow on the grass at high speed?