track safety thread - roll call what's the correct approach

[mjshira]

the sad events of this week have raised the topic of safety in everyones minds. so I figured I'd start a thread to discuss safety equipment, who sells it, how much it costs and what type might be best for auto-cross thru to wheel to wheel racing.

I think everyone could benefit from the knowledge of guys like Jack, Hayden, Chuck, Tyson, Dave and others of you (Jake) that have experience at DE's and the like. I was going to put this over on the racing area but figured it would be most read if it were left here.

What I am curious to learn is what is the best safety set-up for the money out there?

Do specific levels of racing mandate additional saftey equipment? If so what and when?

Where should a cage be used?

What is the best method to install 5/6 point restraints?

Pics and comments would be very much appreciated and of benefit to everyone.

Thanks,

[stealthn]

Lots of topics about this in the AutoX forum...

[mjshira]

yes I agree but not all in one place

[widebody911]

This really needs to be broken out into separate DE and racing threads; I suggest a sticky "DE safety" thread. For racing, the GCR's will dictate what equipment you must have and there are formal tech inspections to enforce them, so from there it's just a matter of wrangling over brand names and styles. There isn't much in the way of standards for DE's other than the lowest common denominator of a helmet of some sort and 3 point belts.

The deeper that people get into this sport, the more gear they seem to get. More usually better in this case, but there's an intersection of compliance, cost, comfort and convenience that everyone must decide for themselves. For 911's, I think Jack Olsen's car is the best execution of this compromise; one of my BMW friends, Jay Hudson, has the M3 equivalent of Jack's car. Both cars are very cleanly executed from the track and comfort standpoints. And by coincidence, both cars are black.

Helmets
Different DE organizations have different rules about the minimum level of safety equipment. We've already established that you must have a helmet, but some allow MA helmets while others require SA.

Roll bars
All of the tracks I've been to require roll bars for cabs, but allow the 'pop-up' roll bars found in later cars. I've still seen convertibles out on the track without roll bars. Coupes are generally allowed without roll bars.

Roll cages
I've never seen a roll cage required for a DE, and requiring such would seem to contravene the spirit of the event. Some people run what I would call 'transitional' cars, meaning cars that fall somewhere between a street car and a full-on race car. My 911 falls into this category; it has a full cage, but no electrical cutoff, fuel cell, or fire suppression (I'll get to them when I get time & money)

Clothing
Likewise, I've never seen the requirement for a driving suit for DE's. Some people have them, most don't. Some clubs have more stringent clothing requirements, such as cotton long sleeve shirts and pants; others don't care if you drive naked. I remember seeing one that required gloves.

Fire extinguishers
Again, some groups require them, most don't.

Insurance
It seems insurance companies are starting to specifically exclude track events from coverage. There are companies out there that write DE-specific policies, American Collectors for example - http://www.americancollectorsins.com/dequote.php (not a plug, but that's the company I use) I feel it's better to sort out the insurance issue ahead of time, rather than wait for something to happen and hope for the best based on anectdotal "I heard on the 'net that so-and-so's insurance covered him when he crashed at Lime Rock" stories.

[jluetjen]

Here's a strawman thought for discussion.

Why should the safety standards for DE's be any less then for a racing on the same track? Is it just because the drivers aren't racing? I would argue that the reduced skill (and discipline) level allowed on the track (compared to most racing series) offsets the increased risks of racing pretty well. As last weekend showed, the speeds attained at DE's can often approach or exceed those of many racing classes. Physics dictates that given two equal cars (911's for example), the car travelling at a higher speed during an impact will be significantly more likely to be involved in a fatal crash. If a 911 at a DE can easily attain 130 MPH at a track, why should the safety requirements for the DE be any less then those required by the SCCA for ITC in which the cars rarely reach 100 MPH???

Here are unrelated "lateral" thoughts for improving DE safety:

1) Safety standards to be set by the speed potential of the car.
- A 95 mph car like a stock 914-4 1.7 may only require current DE safety specs.
- A 100+ mph car like a 911E may require a cage, window net, 5 or 6 point seat belts, race seat(s), HANS device, etc.
- A 130+ mph car will require the above plus a fuel cell and on-board fire system.
- A 140+ mph car will require full race safety standards applied.

2) Reconfigure all DE courses to be <100 MPH courses. For example add tight chicanes or manditory stopping gates on the long straights to keep speeds down.

3) Enforce speed limits. So maybe the maximum speed allowed on the course will be XXX MPH. Have radar guns monitor the straights were those speeds are reachable and have a single warning policy. If you exceed the speed limit, you get a warning. If you do it twice, you can go home and your fee will not be refunded.

To assume that a 130 mph crash in a DE will be any less messy then a 130 mph crash in a race is nothing more then sticking your head in the sand. If people are going to want to continue enjoying DE's, they are going to need to face up to the risks involved. Just because someone can afford the price of the car does not mean that that person is really prepared for the costs associated with maximizing safety while participating in a speed event.

Leaving it up to the individual will mean that some folks will chose to invest in more speed rather then more safety. Those are the very folks who are more likely to die during an event. When they die, along with leaving widows and orphans, they also ruin the sport for the rest of us.

[lateapex911]

James, I'll weigh in with some opinions....but remember, they are just that. LOL

In my race car, (My SCCA ITA Maxda RX-7) I built it to the GCR requirements and then some.

IF I were going to track my car (my 911) , and I was a guy like you with loved ones, I would concentrate on three areas.

1- Passive safety-

I'd think seriously about a rollbar. DEs are events where big car to car contact is unlikely, but a hard hit or roll over is less so. I like the fact that the roll bar is not TOO in the way day to day, but I think it's biggest advantage is that it can function as a great place to attach the harness.

The harness is a huge safety item, but it's only as good as it's installation. So, attach to the stock mounts if the geometry is right (read and follow the manufacturers guide). On the shoulder, I like the roll bar for the anchor point.

IF you are using a harness without the roll bar as an attachment, there are a few (expensive) but viable options...but whatever you decide, keep these factors in mind. Belts stretch in an incident, and you'd be surprised how far. Belts slip off in lateral incidents, espcially when thay are attaced way back on the shelf, as I have seen done. So, I wouls seriously consider a seat with the proper holes.

The seat safety gain is threefold:
a- It holds the belts in theirt proper orientation in an incident
b- It is (if its a good seat, why buy a bad seat?) likely safer than a stock seat, and
c- It is safer during the event because you are not distracted by the need to ahng on, the seat holds you so you concentrate on driving and feed back. (feedback is better too)

So, my budget would start with a rollbar, (even an autopower bolt in is good), a good seat, and a 6 point harness for the car.

For me, I would budget for a good helmet. I have seen the open face crash result, and I have been hit by items on my helmet while racing, so it's full face for me. The biggest single item in a helmet purchase is fit. So get the best fitting, most recent snell rating you can. I think the Isaac restraint is the best choice by far for a close cockpit car...better mobility, better lateral protection (most incidents are lateral), and much better egress characteristics, plus the design is "auto adjusting" for the severity of the hit, and it works in both directions. Whats not to love? Plus the company has great upgrade and return policies, and there is no modification (and Snell cetification voiding) modifications needed to the helmet. Their "link" system is by far the best "budget" H&NR out there as well, IMO.

Thats "passive" safety....

For Active safety.....
1 Brakes. I don't advocate running out and spending thousands on big brakes that will only lock your wheels up faster, LOL! But upgrade the brakes in pace with the rest of the car, never behind the pace. (Brakes first, HP second ) Make sure they are, over all else, consistant, and fade free. So really, just get good pads, flush them with the best fluid, and ensure good cooling on new (not thin) rotors. Upgrade the rubber lines to SS for better feel and modulation.

2 Suspension.- Make sure the bushings and dampers are up to snuff. Bigger springs and bars etc are fine, but too often they come at the expense of proper geometry, and most guys would be better off with a sound platform and more track time than $5K spent on whiz band suspension bits. (get the attachemnt points in order before the flashy stuff ) Again, the idea is to make the car into a sound repeatable handling platform with no surprises or inconsistant behavior.

Finally, only you know your comfort level, and none of us should ever decide which run group, or how to drive based on their ego. Choose a club (PCA regions can be excellent choices) that has a structured DE program, and progress through it methodically.

Whenever possible, invest in more seat time, or driver aids (data aq aystems) instead of horsepower devices. Passing cars on the straights is easy,,,,getting a run on a faster car out of a corner and passing him is where the skill comes in. Plus it's soooo satisfying to pass a guy who knows you have less hp! LOL A driver that is more skilled is most often a safer driver.

OK, I'm off the soapbox...LOL

[lateapex911]

An additional benefit the the safety first expenditure program is that the significan other will suppor tthe driving thing much more happily....

James, if I didn't answer your question properly, PM me and I can give you my number.

[mjshira]

nice work jluetjen, lateapex911 & widebody911. I especially liked Thom's break down and John's idea on having DE standards be the same as those of the track for "racing". The emphasis on the increased risk based on unskilled or lower skilled drivers (he is talking about guys like me here) was really spot on IMHO.

I also liked the insurance link Thom, however, I am sad to report that this company didn't offer coverage here in Indiana.

So let's suppose that we set an speculative DE standard that required the following:

1) 5 point restraint
2) some form of rollover protection (cabs min. 1/2 cage)
3) driving suit
4) specific quality helmet
5) some form of fire supression (bottle or full on system)

Would this contribute to increased safety at the track? Would it help actually prevent fatal injuries?

[efhughes3]

As I got into DE's, the stock belts started to feel insignificant. I put in a rollbar earlier this year, which facilitated harnesses. I put Recaro Speeds in last year, I'm considering going to a Pole Position for even better containment of my 210+ lbs, as the comments above about feeling secure allow you to concentrate on driving are right on.

[sammyg2]

here is my opinion and it is probably not worth the electrons it took to display it:
Know the limits of the car and driver and don't exceed them.
Do not drive at 10/10ths unless you are a real pro and are willing to sacrifice everything. If you are on the edge of the car's or your ability at any point you have no safety margin if the unexpected happens.

I wear an SA 2000 helmet, driving shoes, nomex gloves and nomex suit, and a 5 point harness and racing seat even at autocross events.
i don't care if people think it's over the top.

If i am running at streets of willow where my top speed will not exceed 105, and there is no passing except for the straights and only when waved by, I don't see the need for anything more than that.
If I am running at the big track where speeds get way up there or if I am driving at speed with other cars, an onboard fire extinguisher, both in roll bar and hans device make sense.
I also back off when near others cars just in case. I know my limitations as far as skill, reactions, and judgement, i am just not that great so i don't pretend to be.

I've seen several incidents at amatuer club events, every one of them was caused by two things:
testosterone and ego.
Don't go on the track if you have something to prove. There is no room in the driver's seat for a chip on the shoulder. If it is important for you to be the fastest no matter what, you should have stayed at home.
Crashes are the result of mistakes in actions or judgement and often the person who suffers isn't the one who made the mistake. Leave room and back off so you can react to someone else's lack of common sense.

last week I watched a car get spun out and wrecked on TV. The driver was driving in formation under the yellow and Danica patrick, a supposed pro (yea right), lost control and hit him. Under the yellow! Pressure and ego caused her to do that. In spite of all the hype her performance was lacking so much I questioned whether she had any business out there. She had the best car but her mistakes cost her the race and cost others too.

[PorscheGuy79]

Originally posted by jluetjen


1) Safety standards to be set by the speed potential of the car.
- A 95 mph car like a stock 914-4 1.7 may only require current DE safety specs.
- A 100+ mph car like a 911E may require a cage, window net, 5 or 6 point seat belts, race seat(s), HANS device, etc.
- A 130+ mph car will require the above plus a fuel cell and on-board fire system.
- A 140+ mph car will require full race safety standards applied.

.

A little extreme IMO to require such high standards. For example my SC can see 100mph on Blackhawk if im lucky but thats the only place I see it, on the striaght. Now move over to something like Road America where you see high speeds in the corner and I would start to worry. Heck on that track I could be in the 130/140mph club if I tried hard enough.

EDIT: I dont want to sound detacted I just think its hard to require such things in situations that dont necessarily demand it. Personally I hope to get a roll bar, better seats, and harnesses as soon as I can.

[PorscheGuy79]

Originally posted by sammyg2
i am just not that great so i don't pretend to be.

I've seen several incidents at amatuer club events, every one of them was caused by two things:
testosterone and ego.
Don't go on the track if you have something to prove. There is no room in the driver's seat for a chip on the shoulder. If it is important for you to be the fastest no matter what, you should have stayed at home.
Crashes are the result of mistakes in actions or judgement and often the person who suffers isn't the one who made the mistake. Leave room and back off so you can react to someone else's lack of common sense.

Bingo, my thoughts exactly. I never ever for one minute think or tell myself im a great driver. The moment you start thinking you're invincible is the moment you are the weakest.

[jluetjen]

Originally posted by sammyg2

Know the limits of the car and driver and don't exceed them.
Do not drive at 10/10ths unless you are a real pro and are willing to sacrifice everything.

Sammy; The problem that I see with this is that the driver who violates the first point will (by definition) inevitably violate the second since they are insensitive to what is happening to the car and on the track.

Originally posted by PorscheGuy79

I just think its hard to require such things in situations that dont necessarily demand it.

The problem that clouds most people's judgement is that 99.99% of the time (if you're lucky) the car won't need any of those things. I raced for almost 10 years and never needed any of that stuff, except the seatbelts. Luckely I never had a serious accident, only two mild accidents that each tore a corner off of the car that I was driving. Trust me, in the fraction of a second before the car hit the wall in both situations, I had more then enough time to consider the investments that I made in my safety equipment, (as well as thinking of my parents, in the later case my wife, how much this was going to hurt, why did I ever get out of bed that day? and numerous other things.)

But it's that one day when you have a "big one"; when you catch a rut just off-track, hit that small length of armco that's not covered by tires, get T-boned, by the idiot who didn't respond to the yellow flags, or when a driver with blinders on pulls in front of you when you're on a flyer and he's pulling out of the pits (sound familiar?), that the investment pays off, not just for you, but for your family and everyone else involved in the sport.

I can speak from personal experience that there are a lot of guys racing right now in unglamourous ITC cars, Spec Miatas, Spec RX7, and other low-$ classes who could drive rings around a lot of drivers of expensive street cars doing DEs. To be honest they could most likely even stretch to get a nice 911 instead. The problem is that if they did, they wouldn't have enough money left over to properly and safely prepare the cars. By safely I mean to the standards required by racing organizations. So rather then drive an expensive car that only meets the NHTSA standards on the track, they forego the expensive car and put their money into properly preparing a "cheaper" car for the demands of track events. Racing and driving a car fast is that important to them.

To put it differently, a lot of Porsche/Ferrari/(fill in expensive car brand) owners spend too much money buying the fast car, and not enough money on the preparation and safety of the driver, nor preparing for the inevitiable accident when doing track events. Just my (admittedly self-ritious) $0.02.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by jluetjen

To put it differently, a lot of Porsche/Ferrari/(fill in expensive car brand) owners spend too much money buying the fast car, and not enough money on the preparation and safety of the driver, nor preparing for the inevitiable accident when doing track events. Just my (admittedly self-ritious) $0.02.

John- Excellent point! One that I tried to make in my post.

I think that the natural iclination is to put the $ into go fast parts in any track endeavor, no matter if it's a Porsche or a Neon. But the fact that ferraris and porsches are often vastly more expensive than the proper safety gear creates an obvious and unfavorable light on the more expensive car.

There is one other benefit to a well prepped car...you concentrate on driving without a dark cloud of doubt hanging over your head each corner.

[Jeff Alton]

To add a little to Jake's point about brakes. This is just my opinion.....

I do not understand why people continue to go to track events knowing they are going to get a spongy pedal and possible loose braking effectiveness even though it happens everytime they go. Yet, they still go and do not upgrade this "critical" safety device. I do not advocate spending needless money on mods, but if your car demonstrated serious brake fade issues everyday on your drive to work at mundane speeds, how long till you got it looked at?? Apply the same level of thinking to prepping your car for a high speed event.

And I agree again with what Jakes says about not having to worry about your car while you are driving, don't want to be thinking "is this the braking zone where the pedal is gonna hit the floor?"

It all comes down to what makes you comfortable for yourself and your family/loved ones. After seeing the C-GT tradgedy, I have upgraded the safety my car yet again.

Jeff

[mjshira]

so what is the best safety upgrade for ones money? brakes? restraints?

[jluetjen]

so what is the best safety upgrade for ones money? brakes? restraints?

A professional racing school such as Skip Barber, Bonderont. Spenard, Roos, or one of the similer schools.

Personally I'd rank them as "heads and shoulders" above the PCA, SCCA, NASA or similar schools, not that those are bad. They are not. But the "pro" instructors are doing it for a living, day-in and day-out and have definitely got the process of teaching figured out. Near as I can tell, all of them are also very good drivers too. I did a few SCCA schools (at various tracks and in various regions), and then went to Skip Barber. I learned more in the 3-day Skip Barber class then in all of the other "driver's schools". The teaching process was so good that I didn't need to have an instructor sitting next to me to teach me the line. Instead they taught us the process of learning "the line" on any race track that we might encounter. So rather then "tell us the time, they taught us how to build the watch".

I did get to enjoy having the instructors show us around Lime Rock though in a great big old Dodge van. They did it while the other half of the class was lapping on-track in FF's. BTW, the van passed a number of the FF's.

It's not the car -- it's the driver. Without a driver, the car would be almost perfectly safe -- because it wouldn't be moving.

[silverc4s]

I don't know how controversial this will be, but here goes:
I am (slightly) north of 60 now. I voluntarily chose to cease all competitive driving at about age 52, when my vision gave me trouble for the first time in my life, and I felt my reaction times slowing, at least in my opinion. No incident involved, just a discussion with a co-worker that got me thinking.
I was an SCCA racer in my 20's and 30's, a Porsche club autocrosser and occasional track day type in my 30's and 40's. I still love to drive, and do occasionally take a spirited run on a lonely road in the Texas hills in the early morning hours.
I know Paul Newman , for example, is still going strong at whatever age he is now, but he has also crashed a few recently, and may just not know when or how to "hang it up"...

Everyone is different, I know.

The highway analogy is the many many seniors still on the road that have no business behind the wheel, because the loss of a driver's license is a permanent house arrest sentence for them. Many are a menace to navigation on a daily basis in some parts of the country, at least.

[Jeff Alton]

Spending money on brakes is not always required, but when it is, it should be spent. That was my point and that particular one just drives me crazy I guess it may come down to a bunch of things.
How fast do you plan on going? Do you feel the safety components of your car were designed for that? What makes you comfortable?

I think someone posted earlier that the best dollars spent is on instruction, and that is hard to argue with. Your brain in most cases is the best safety device you have. (I may be in some trouble!) All I can say is I thought I had done enought to make my car safe enough for "me". Then the C-GT tradgedy happenned. Yesterday I bought new harnesses( passenger side too) and bought a roll bar. I am looking at fire suppression and a battery cut off too. This is money I had earmarked for my 3.6 motor that is in pieces in my shop and is gonna have to stay that way for a little while longer. What motivated me to do this is my son. If I kill myself, too bad for me. But what about him?
I keep a picture of him in my glove box, he is 2.5 years old. Before EVERY session, I look at it and remember what is important before I put the car in gear and head out. It is part of my "pre-flight checklist" if you will. I don't know if it makes me safer or not, but I hope it does.

Cheers, Jeff

[lateapex911]

JAmes, you have a lot of great advice here.

I know your car, and the wrench who built it, so I know you have ggreat bushigns and brakes and you are starting with the essentials in good order.

So...for a driver safety package, here the "bang for the buck" stuff.

A 5 point harness..you can pick these up for $100 all day long. You won't get a fancy name or a cam lock, but you'll be just as safe as those who do.

A good helmet. Get a snell2000 SA rating, and test fit until you like the fit. Worry little about the manufacturer. Budget $250 or so.

I would get the Issac Link, for $295, (I think these are still on the introductory sale) or call /PM me on getting a great deal on an intermediate that I have unused. (I have 2)

Finally, get a good racing seat. Momo has a seat called the "Starter" I think that is very reasonable. Ideally it needs to have it's back attached to a brace. So add a Autopower rollbar....or.......

Get an upgraded "FIA" certified seat, which needs no seatbackbrace. This will be the cheaper route, although you won't get the benefits of a roll bar.

I think a seat is important as a means to control the belts.

So,
Belts: $100
Seat:$400
Isaac Link: $300
Helmet: $250
total: about a thousand.