Help diagnosing breakdown w/ oil leak

[Christien]

I'm posting this for copper who just called me from a hotel room somewhere in Williamsville NY. He's broken down and in need of some help. Here are the symptoms as he described it to me:

He was driving fine for about 285km, then stopped at a toll gate to get a ticket - he pulled away from gate and heard a clatter or clunk from rear, like he ran over something. He noticed a stream of oil behind the car, then the car started running rough as if it were missing. He pulled over and there was a steady thin stream of oil running down from above the passenger side oil return tubes in the area of the heads - backside of the valve covers, not the actual valve covers but where it goes up above the oil return tubes.

Anyone have any idea what might have happened, and what he needs to do? The car is a 69.

He's going into Culligan Porsche in the morning in Williamsville NY, and wants to go in with as much info as possible.

I'll be in touch with him later tonight to pass on any answers from here. If anyone wants to contact him directly pm me for his cell #.

Thanks guys,
Chris

[curiousone940]

Without actually seeing the car and doing some trouble-shooting, any ideas I could offer under these circumstances would be of the "worst case scenario"......engine clunks, followed by large amounts of escaping oil, normally has a bad (and an expensive) ending at the repair shop

[Christien]

That's what Jim's afraid of. The car was obviously still driving after whatever happened, though leaking oil fairly quickly. He described it to me as a steady stream, as if you were pouring oil out of a bottle. Wish I had more info to describe - I'll call him later tonight after we get a few more ideas here and get any more info then.

Thanks again,
Chris

[jacko241]

Hmmm, he just posted a thread a couple days ago complaining of a knocking sound. This doesn't look good. I am afraid that was a sign of impending doom.

[Grady Clay]

If the oil is coming from the cam housing end of the oil return tube, it could be that a rocker arm shaft has slid out. The earlier noises could be from it being partly out of place. If it were an exhaust rocker it would leak a lot. Of course it would quit running on that cylinder.

Best of luck.
Grady

[Christien]

Grady,

I'm on the phone with Jim and he says that sounds pretty close. He wants to know exactly through what point would the oil be leaking from the housing if it were a rocker arm shaft that's slid out? He says it's not coming through any lines or return tubes.

Jim says thanks - me too

Chris

[Christien]

Bump for any more ideas, or answers to Jim's latest questions. He's headed into the dealership first thing in the morning, and I'm sure would like to be armed with as much knowledge as possible. What's the basic procedure for fixing if Grady's suggestion is correct? Parts needed?

[Superman]

I'm with Grady on this. My best guess is that an exhaust rocker shaft has slid out of its home. These are about 2-3 inches long, and about 3/4 inch in diameter. The ends are held by bores in the cylinder head body, and the center goes through the rocker. The rocker rocks on this shaft. The shaft is hollow, and there is a bolt that goes through it. The bolt head and the nut are tapered so that when they are tightened, then make pressure on the inside of the shaft so that it wedges itself into the bores that hold it. It's probably doubtful that each and every unbroken bit is still in the head, but if it were, and he had the right allen wrenches, he could simply reinstall and be on his way. All this can be examined and understood pretty well by simply taking that valve cover off and inspecting. Of course, the dealer will suggest a complete engine overhaul, flushing the gas tank, rebuilding the suspension and repainting the car. I would simply reinstall the shaft and drive the car.

[Grady Clay]

The only good way to tell is to remove the valve covers on that side (drain the sump first using the drain plug.) If this is the problem then one rocker is probably broken. That would be the single "snap" noise Jim heard. The prior clatter probably was the increase in valve clearance with the loose shaft.

The difficult thing about this is while the rocker shaft is working its way out of normal position there is a point where the shaft and rocker are supported by only one side. This usually leads to damaging the cam housing (expensive.) Eventually the rocker gets cocked at an angle and the cam lobe breaks the rocker. Many times this also damages the cam. All this you can determine by just removing the two valve covers.

IF this is the problem the procedure would be to remove the engine and take apart that side down to the heads. There should be no need to remove the heads. It is a PITA to clean the sealant off the heads while still on the engine. You do not need to remove the carburetor or heat exchanger for this procedure. The usual worst case would be to have to replace the cam housing, one rocker, one rocker shaft, and the cam. Of course Murphy’s Law applies.

If you replace the cam with new or regrind, the rockers should also be new or reconditioned. Usually the rocker arm shafts can be repositioned to extend their life. After any replacement you should keep track of any changes in valve clearance that might indicate serious wearing of a cam lobe to rocker surfaces.

The cam timing piece at the sprocket should be carefully inspected for damage. There was a lot of force applied through the chain drive components to break the rocker. Carefully inspect and rebuild the tensioner and replace the three chain ramps on that side. The condition of everything will tell you if you should look into the other side.

As part of the general diagnosis you should carefully inspect for any debris at the sump screen. That is particularly true in the small space around the perimeter of the screen next to the case. Do this while the engine is in the car. So long as the engine turns freely you should also do a cylinder leak test prior to disassembly but after the valve covers are off. After the partial disassembly you can look past the chain and into the case to inspect the aluminum jack shaft gear for damage.

At a minimum while you are there, inspect the position and re-torque all the other rocker arm shafts. I would use the opportunity to rebuild both tensioners and replace all six chain ramps on general principles.

Once you diagnose the problem I would take a deep breath and decide who you want to repair the damage. You have a lot of friends here in the States who will take care of our neighbor from the north. I hope it turns out to be something simple and certainly nothing more serious.

A lesson for all: The maintenance just after a rebuild includes torque the heads, torque the rocker arm shafts, set the valve clearance, and checking the cam timing. Judging by recent Pelican posts it should also include the torque on the CV bolts if the transmission was out.

Best,
Grady
gradyclay@hotmail.com
303-756-7308

[Christien]

Thanks guys. I relayed all this info to Jim this morning. He'd dropped off the car and was back at the hotel when I spoke to him, waiting for the dealership to call back with their diagnosis. He's hoping to either get the car back on the road late today or early tomorrow, or fly/bus/train to NYC, so at least they won't miss out on the rest of their trip.

Thanks again for all the help - you guys are awesome.

Chris

[Paulporsche]

Godspeed, Jim.

[copper]

Thanks to everyone for their help.

I'm in NYC now, minus my girl. She's at Auto Place Porsche in Williamsville.

The wrench at the dealership advised that #6 sounded like it had a bad rocker, and there was also chatter from the pass side chain housing. They were taking a while, as they were short one of their Porsche guys and had a lot of cars there for service. The wrench said he was hoping it wasn't gonna be bad when he opened it up.

We decided to leave the car there, and continue with our holiday, so we rented a super sporty Ford Focus and departed. I'll be speaking with the dealer further tomorrow and will be picking the car up on Saturday.

I'm thinking that the parts will be quite costly if the dealer gets them. So hopefully, once I talk to them tomorrow (quite a helpfull bunch) they can tell me what is needed and I was thinking of ordering the parts from Pelican if in stock and having them shipped out next day... We'll see.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Everyone think happy, inexpensive thoughts for me please.

Good news is, we're here in New York to have our holiday. The audience coordinator at CBS even got us tickets for the Wednesday night taping of Letterman, after we couldn't make today's. Maybe I'll get on TV.

Anyhow, the journey continues.

Thanks again
Jim

(Chris, thanks for helping me out with the post. Grady and bunch, thanks for the guidance and support.)

[Christien]

Hey Jim, great to hear from you in NYC! Glad you made it, and didn't have to cancel the whole trip.

When I first read "I'm in NYC, minus my girl" my first thought was that you left your #1 girl at the dealership so you could head off to the big city by yourself I had visions of a rather-peeved wife watching a bunch of guys work on the 911. Glad I figured it out!

Enjoy the rest of the trip - I'll tape Letterman on Wednesday for you.

Chris

[copper]

I did leave my #1 girl there...

Okay, I never said that.

[copper]

The dealer is currently in the process of putting the new parts in. It was in fact a broken rocker shaft.

First prize goes to Grady in the "I can't see it, or hear it, but I can diagnose it" category!!

Yet again, you prove yourself to be a true guru.

The parts shouldn't be bad. The $80/hr in labour is gonna hurt though...

But at least she'll be back together and done right.

[jacko241]

That was an amazing diagnosis by Grady. I am very impressed. I have ownd an automotive shop for 25 years, and it is very hard to diagnose without seeing the vehicle. Very nice, Grady!

[Grady Clay]

Jim,

I’m just glad it wasn’t as bad as it might have been.

Now, for the big question - - WHY?

What caused the shaft to brake? Had it been loose in the cam housing? Is the rocker OK? Is the cam OK? Is the bore in the cam housing OK? How are the other rocker shafts – centered & tight? Are the valves properly sealing? Is the cam timing correct?

You can see the reasons for the questions. A rocker arm shaft usually doesn’t break just out of the blue and when it does there is usually collateral damage. It is possible that the broken rocker shaft is the cause – it just broke. It is possible that it was the weakest link in a chain of events and the real cause hasn’t been found. It is possible that the shaft broke and there is other damage caused by the broken shaft or the original cause that just “passed through” the shaft. You don’t want to get 500 miles down the road and have a problem reappear when the real problem show up.

I can think of a particular scenario: A piece of chain ramp broke off. The piece went through the chain sprocket. The cam timing jumped just one tooth. The valves were lightly hitting the pistons. The three valves got slightly bent (prior noise). The bent valves open up the valve clearance (more prior noise). The stress broke a rocker arm shaft (the snap). The rocker and shaft pieces fell out of position. That cylinder stopped making power (the poor running). The oil poured out on the ground (getting your attention.)

You can see the reason for a comprehensive diagnosis. I trust they have done so and it was just a shaft that’s time was up. Feel free to copy them my posts.

Have fun in the Big City. How about a report? It has been many years since I played tourist there.

Best,
Grady

[jacko241]

Yes, Jim, I hope you enjoy your visit. My brother lives in Manhatten, and has a business on 2nd Avenue, Jerome Jacalone Antiques.

[copper]

I had a brief chat with the service manager today on my cell phone while I was sitting in Hooters at 56th and Broadway until my cell died.

Anyhow, they finished her up and the total is $506 US. (Remember that's like $600 Canadian to me).

They replaced the shaft, and pin and checked out the rest of the stuff. They can't see any problems in the chain housing area, but there is a very occasional clatter from one of the housings, but not frequent enough or long enough to determine which one. The tensioners were upgraded in about 86 from the originals. They are not the oil fed ones however, but the P.O. did apparently upgrade them. At any rate, they advised that they are okay, but it's something I'm going to want to look at in the next little bit.

This gives me some satisfaction to the point that they didn't just say "Oh, you needed a complete set of tensioners and ramps" and charge the hell out of me. Given that they know I'm not there to see it and confirm, and I need the car for Saturday. This, in my mind lends some credibility.

Anyhow, I called them back but the service manager is gone for the day. I'll call in the morning and go over the questions raised by Grady, which are all excellent and will help me in the future and determine when to tear open the chain housings.

So, we're back at my bro's in Brooklyn Heights. Relaxing in the air conditioning for a bit and then we'll grab dinner. Tomorrow, we'll be at the Ed Sullivan theater at 3 pm to get our tickets for Letterman, we'll attend the taping (watch for me, I'll be wearing a white Porsche shirt, but not sure if it's the Wed or Thurs show they're taping tomorrow. (they do two on Monday, then one on tues wed and thurs.) Then we'll go for a nice steak dinner at Sparks, probably the best Steak house I've been to. That's where Paul Castellano of the Gambino crime family was gunned down by John Gotti and crew.

Thanks Crew!!

Jim

[copper]

Well gang, that little adventure is over.

We came back early. We had our fun in NYC, less the great countryside drives we had planned.

Picked up the car from Culligan Auto Place Porsche in Williamsville today. Very knowledgeable, friendly and helpful folk.

Anyhow, it seems that the problem was that the pin that holds the arm and shaft together worked loose. No damage to anything luckily. The mechanic gave me the old part.

Looks like when the P.O. had work done on it in the 80s, someone stripped the inside of the hexagonal head bolt. The technician figured that the way the hex head was rounded off, it wasn't secured tightly and worked its way loose to this point. (Bear in mind that the car wasn't driven from 94 to last year).

So it came off, and the oil poured out the hole where the pin goes. Or something like that. I have to look at my schematics again to match the part up.

They were pretty good with the bill too. Only $110 in parts and $320 in labour (4 hrs). Plus oil and taxes. Needed valve gaskets, rocker sleeve, nut, screw, and a couple other small things.

I figure I got off pretty easy from what I was anticipating.

Anyhow, thanks for all the help. Good to know I've got support.

Jim