You know, Dave, instead of revolting against the POC types, there's an alternative: making an agreement with TCRA.

The Touring Car guys are always looking for folks to hook up with and they are super friendly and accommodating.

The nice thing about the 944 is.... It's a 944. If I do something stupid and roll it up into a ball, I go get the spare car out of my warehouse and bolt up my go-fast parts to it. No need to cry over it. Not sure I want to go W2W with my 911. Who knows what will happen down the road......

on the http://bushwacker-racing.com/prc/classes/toyo_911_challenge.htm site, it says for the 3.2s:

"5. Pistons and cylinders: any stock Motronic 911 3.2ltr 95mm bore."

Just curious how'd they'd verfy that.

I like the whole idea though.

I know, Emil's group is a great bunch of people, but POC can really deliver with great events and the "revolution" would not even be a regime change (!) to get the PRC rules in effect. As i said earlier, get enough POC -PRC guys going down here and it's just in the bag to make it happen

here's the latest thinking from the POC board:

Stock Engine.
Stock tranny with a discussion/vote on changing pinion (1 choice only) to make it more lively.
Any LSD.
Any oil cooler.
Set front and rear bumpers. Set Wing. Hood not sure?
Any intake.
Set hearder or exhaust option.
We discussed the need to put in camber, so as to not destroy tires. This would differ a little from PCA rules.
Set wheel size and offset.
Obviously. Spec tire.
Spec weight with driver, same for everyone.
There may need to be an SC 3.0 version and a Carrera 3.2 version due to hp, weight and brake differences to name a few. It would be same mods, but 2 subclasses.

Still debating. I prefer a set torsion and swaybar size. Steve thinks to set a max. I'd prefer to take out the guess work of verying torsion/sway bar combinations. It exists now as an issue, why carry it forward? Eliminate that from the arguments?

Set bushings.

If we could find a wheel manufacturer to provide a smoking price on a spec wheel (maybe 2 options), this would be great.

Some other items, allow titanium valve retainers due to breakage. No balancing or maching of engine components.

If we restrict the header or exhaust allowed, it may eliminate the need for custom burned chips. That, or we mandate stock chips or a set chip?

-----

I argued for one classification and instead a different min weight for 3.0 v. 3.2 cars.

Howdy,

Just a quick heads up.

The PRC Toyo cup is a disorganized mess. They are currently undergoing a wholesale rule change by majority vote which includes tossing out the 27 and 3.2 motors. You had better wait to build a car before you get burned.

I would hardly call 12+ cars hitting the starting line all within 3-5sec per lap "disorganized" but if you are looking for a place where rules are more important than racing, I guess you are looking in the wrong place.

Plus hiding behind a new login name and calling names is un cool.

Jim

Hey Jim, any comment on the draft spec above? I know that you guys are thinking of moving to what looks like a 3.0 series. Our reasoning is that keeping stock 3.0 and 3.2 cars in the class might keep the numbers up. Then there could be subclasses for awards, or weight differences between the two. But are we missing something you guys have already seen?

Stock Engine.
-good, but on 2.7 it is hard to police, on 3.0 and 3.2 it is pretty easy because the CIS and 3.2 pistons are easy to id with a bore scope, a 2.7 piston can be a lot tougher. rich has developed a method of profiling the cams while in the car, additionally we can measure volume, and bore scope.

Stock tranny with a discussion/vote on changing pinion (1 choice only) to make it more lively.
-similar to us. stock gearing, it is easy to measure but turning over the engine and measuring the wheel rotation

Any LSD.
-same as PRC and works fine

Any oil cooler.
-same as PRC and works fine

Set front and rear bumpers. Set Wing. Hood not sure?
-we limit the wing style and it does not seem to have a huge effect, there are about 4 cars with duck tails, 6-9 with IROC and one with some bi-wing thing.

Any intake.
-we restrict the inake on the 3.2 to stock, that way if someone wants a low maintenance motor they can choose it, but a fully open 3.2 would likely kill the 3.0s

Set hearder or exhaust option.
-looks like we are headed towards a 1.5" header on 3.2, and 2.7s, and if you run 46mm webers, or injection, but if you have 40mm webers then you can run 1 5/8ths (not resolved, but not heavily disputed either)

We discussed the need to put in camber, so as to not destroy tires. This would differ a little from PCA rules.
- we are pretty free in the suspension, because there is a stong belief that the Toyo tire is the limiting factor, so any bars, shocks, etc are currently accepted, because the Tire is the weakest link. Seems to be working.

Set wheel size and offset.
-same as PRC, and working

Obviously. Spec tire.
-225/55/16 front 245/45/16 rear Toyo RA-1

Spec weight with driver, same for everyone.
-easy and works, we weight in after every race.

There may need to be an SC 3.0 version and a Carrera 3.2 version due to hp, weight and brake differences to name a few. It would be same mods, but 2 subclasses.
- we limit the brakes only in that they need to fit under the 16" rim, seems to limit the options quite a bit. For a while we limited it to the 964 pad size, so 930 turbo, 944 turbo etc... which all take that pad werer legal, but it seems the open but under the rim is just as good a rule and reduces the policing needed.


Still debating. I prefer a set torsion and swaybar size. Steve thinks to set a max. I'd prefer to take out the guess work of verying torsion/sway bar combinations. It exists now as an issue, why carry it forward? Eliminate that from the arguments?
-again I think if you pick a spect tire that has its limit within the capability of a lesser suspension, then other than what we have which is limiting the front suspension to torsion bars, you don't need to do anything else.



Set bushings.
-we don't address this other than to limit you to stock locations.

Hi - I'm a San Diego PCA guy and have been looking into a way to step up to WTW racing without getting into a spending race. The Spec 911 would be perfect for me. I know there are at least 10+ cars of other time trialers that are potential candidates in SD.

While the POC licensing process is long, I'd definitely do it if the class got established. I have been content to time trial given that my car would not be competitive in the POC ranks, so this would give me great motivation to step up.

BTW no knock on the POC licensing process, it clearly is excellent.

We'll hold you SD guys to it when it comes to pass. I've formally requested that a 911 spec class be added to the 2006 GCRs with the understanding that the details of the class are TBD. Presumably this class would run for STS, TT and CR, so you can run the spec class from day 1. Also, there is talk of having it "up to" for many of the mods, so you could run with a fairly stock car and tweak as you go.

So basically it would be:

stock 3.0 or 3.2 engine (maybe allow carbs on 3.0 to gain hp)
any exhaust
stock tranny (not sure about allowing 7:31 RP)
min weight of car/driver (different for 3.0/3.2 unless carbs or ? allowed)
spec tire (probably Toyo RA-1 225/50/16 and 245/45/16)
fg bumpers (of some set style and/or manufacturer...we'd have to strike a deal)
V3 style rear wing (others optional? not sure yet)
any t-bar/sway
any brake that fits under the 16" wheel (or up to Carrera brakes)

I think if costs are a concern then those Toyo Cup weights should go up to those similar to PCA stock class for those engine sizes and brakes should be as outfitted with that engine. The current rules would basically require (to be most competitive) anyone with a 3.0 or 2.7 to get Carrera brakes...which adds unecessary cost but at 100-200 lbs lighter than a 3.2 cars, SC brakes would have similar racing performance and would work fine.

Getting a 3.0 to 2500lbs with driver would take purchasing of some not directly performance related stuff (carbon body parts, plastic windows, sunroof deleting, smaller relocated battery, etc). For some of us (with helmet, clothing, HANS, etc) that's a 2275lb 3.0 and that's pretty light considering all safety hardware that would be on board.

Also, I don't see limits on ballast location. Those who can afford the light stuff they could bring their cars to 40/60 or even 45/55 if ballast location is free.

Rear aero package should be those without leading edge. Once you introduce a real wing it's a whole new ball game back there.

Spec tire would be easy in this class and manufacturer support would be easy to get.

Now, if only it would run on the east coast.

The weights are definitely up for discussion (as is everything, but we seem to have consensus on a lot of it). I agree that upping the weight would help keep things cheaper. The V3 wing seems to be attractive to many, although I would prefer ducks.

what's a V3 wing? Porsche never spec'd a wing on a 2.7, 3.0, or 3.2.

Also is there a call out not allowing wide body cars?

I am not the issue here and I will leave being "cool" to those kids who care about such things. The fact remains that The Toyo Cup is no closer to stable rules than when it started. If you don't care about the rules, then why so much effort in trying to sort them out? Defensivness proves my point.

"Defensiveness proves my point", back at you, and I stand behind my statement, that if you are unwilling to identify yourself, then your opinion holds little to no value. Who knows what is your motivation? maybe you have an axe to grind with someone and so would like to throw stones anonymously.

Never said rules were bad, just said to call Toyo Cup disorganized was not accurate. It is organized, and is providing some great racing.

Jim

I think the wing is one like this:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1120186761.jpg

Porsche didn't spec a wing, but they did spec rear spoilers (and for IROC had their own tail).

My sense is that wide body cars would not be allowed (defintely not turbos), although that hasn't been decided.

I am still entitled to my opinion. If you want to blow smoke up POC's rear end, that is your business, but I would encourage anyone who is interested in building a spec car to look at the Toyo cup forum and judge for themselves.

Jim is too diplomatic. Hiding behind a new login and calling names is asinine, and makes you (and whatever particular axe you have to grind) worthy of nothing but contempt.

Quote:

I am still entitled to my opinion.

Well, so am I. In my opinion, whatever rule change that would be good for you got voted down in as not good for the group, and you now have sand in your wedding tackle. You choose not to tell us who you are, or what your particular gripe with the rules process is, so my opinion must be true.

Quote:

I would encourage anyone who is interested in building a spec car to look at the Toyo cup forum and judge for themselves

I would encourage anyone who is interested in building a spec car to build a Miata, but that is just me.

Then again, WTF do I know, I race a Volkswagen.

Tom

Typical.