First Dyno Run on the 3.4

[Jgordon]

So the (almost) final results are in:

89 Carrera case (rebuilt/refreshed)
Mahle 3.4 P&Cs (10:1 compression)
964 cams
ARP rod bolts
EBS valve springs
Machined valve seats
New valve guides
New Dilavar head studs
Steve Wong chip running the show



First run on the dyno - 207.2 rwhp, works out to roughly 245 fwhp
It kept on climbing as they pulled dyno runs, it should climb a little from where we are as the engine loosens up. Engine spins to 8K, but we put a cut-out at 7400. Engine makes peak Tq at 5K, and peak power at 6k, so it's not even an issue. I'm glad for the safety margin, considering how this debacle started.

The mixture was way rich, we're leaning it out a little for the current exhaust setup. Should yield another 5-7 hp. We'll probably have to richen it when I put on the rest of the system. Just picked up a Dansk 2/2 for cheap, looking for a pair of SSIs as well. Not quite sure I'll use the 2/2, I might end up with a 2/1 so I don't have to cut the rear valence.

[}{arlequin]

sweet, now you need to find a 2300# longhood to stick it in

[Jeff Alton]

If you can wait, I will be selling a 3.2 SSI set up with a 2 in 1 oyt dansk sport muffler in about 6 weeks, maybe a little sooner........ Price will be very fair! Nice motor by the way. Does it have stock cams?

Jeff

[Jgordon]

I can definitely wait. I have to go make some money before I buy anything else. Consider me interested. I'll change the cam designation above, thanks for the reminder.

[Jgordon]

Dave, she is kind of a pig. 2900#s or so, I'll weigh her in fighting trim at some point. But I love her anyway.

[}{arlequin]

don't listen to me, just jealousy kicking in

[JeremyD]

Sweet - I know Steve will get you dialed in

[89911]

The last run I had with my 3.4 left me with 230 at the wheels or about 265 at the crank. This was still running rich and Steve worked on a new one for me. I didn't have a chance to dyno it since the change over, but I did take it to the track and changed the chips there. The newer one made the 230 at the wheels chip feel downright slow, so I'm not sure what its output is, but it is more then "seat of the pants", because my top speeds and exiting speed where up. I'm betting its at least 10hp more so 276 at the crank is realistic. Our engines are similar, although mine used a 20/21 cam and is twin plugged and set for higher octane (94 min) fuel. I did use higher compression Mahles which are key (listening Jeremy? ) The point is that Steve W knows how to get the most out of that engine. He got 225 at the wheels on my brothers hot rodded euro 3.2!

[JeremyD]

I guess we wll see - I'm doing 9.8 to one - of course, no sissy 20/21 cam for me...

[RickM]

Originally posted by Jgordon
Engine spins to 8K, but we put a cut-out at 7400. Engine makes peak Tq at 5K, and peak power at 6k, so it's not even an issue. I'm glad for the safety margin, considering how this debacle started.

How does one determine a new redline?

[Jgordon]

89911 - what else do you have going on with your engine? Higher compression, exhaust, intake? It's my understanding that twin-plugging does not add power, but rather just creates more efficient burn in the cylinder (which could, by definition I guess, create more power?)

Jeremy - what kind of cam are you going with? What's the 964 equivalent to?

Rick - To set the cut-out, all you do is program a point on the chip - that's how you can have a valet setting that cuts the engine at 3K. If you're asking how people know where the engine will overrev, and where you should set the redline, my understanding is that the eggheads in the factory match up the physics of the different pieces, do some practice runs, and then set the redline back by a safety margin (yeah, my understanding is kind of vague). Either that or they just blow up engines and keep lowering the speed until the engines hold together. I honestly don't know. It's been said that the 3.2s are good to roughly 6900 rpm, with the weak points after that being the soft valve springs and the stretchable rod bolts. Deman said that with the changes, the engine could spin to 8k easily, and we set the cut-out at 7400. Hopefully someone will come in and explain it better.

[dd74]

I'm no expert, but I have heard that any stock 911 valvetrain can withstand revs up to 7,300 RPM. That tolerance level, however, was engineered into the motor in the likelihood of an over-rev mishap - a safety margin if you will - as opposed to reaching the motor's peak power. As is, most stock 911 engines run out of breath several hundred to almost 2,000 RPMs before 7,300.

[JeremyD]

I'm going with a 993 super sport cam = 964 is a pretty common upgrade - 993 is a little more agressive -

89911 has SSI's too = which seem to do a little better in the low end torque - especially with a 20/21.

with that said - I am not shooting for the moon - and would be very happy with 230 at the wheels so I could be like 89911!

Redline is usually determined by the valve train - and any weaknesses in the bottom end. address the 3.2 rod bolts and then worry about valve springs. whether you run out of breath at 6500 0r 8500 will depend much on the cam as anything.

[Jeff Alton]

Well, I will jump in here to. Building a 10.5:1 twin plug, Jenvey ITB's, either a web 120/104 or a 993rs cam. I am going to use my 1 5/8 inch 993 HE witha Triad exhuast.......

Jeff

[89911]

Originally posted by Jgordon
89911 - what else do you have going on with your engine? Higher compression, exhaust, intake? It's my understanding that twin-plugging does not add power, but rather just creates more efficient burn in the cylinder (which could, by definition I guess, create more power?)

Lets see: Bored throttle body, Extrudehoned intakes, port and polished intakes myself, SSI's with a very unrestrictive 2 in 4 out Borla, along with all the neccessary stuff that I can't remember but my mechanic billed me for (rod bolts, valve springs, etc). I think a few things come into play. The fact that my engine seems to be running very well. It has burned almost no oil since break in and the compression is very high. I can tell by the amount of brake pressure when I let off the gas. Also, my mechanic has told me what a b*tch it is to turn my engine when he did the last valve adjustment. Also the twin plugging has allowed Steve to be generous with the advancement setting and octane minimums since my car is better protected from predetonation being twin plugged. Is it worth it, probably not. I guess I just wanted that twin plugged distributer in my engine bay for that wow effect. I'm happy with it. This teamed up with a lighter flywheel and regeared G50 have made this a real drivers car. After 2nd gear, I can shift ever gear and not drop below 4000 rpms, keeping all the gears in the top of the power band. I love it.

[Carrera3.5L]

Hey Congrats! I just flew back home tonight from your neck of the woods (actually Englishtown, NJ) and saw the 3.4L motor is up and running and already on the dyno!

Don't get too caught up in the dyno number comparisons, different dyno types will measure results differently and many of the same dyno types will also read slightly different. My motor may have made 100, 200 or 300 whp on that particular dyno, who really knows?

Ideally, if you could have done a couple of "before" runs as a baseline on that dyno your new numbers would show the percentage improvement, which lets you know (and us I suppose) if spending your hard earned money was worth it or not!

More importantly, have you gotten to drive it yet? What do you think?

Jeff, you're killing us. If you decide on the Web grind, let me know as I may be able to assist.

Ralph

[911-32]

Originally posted by 89911
The last run I had with my 3.4 left me with 230 at the wheels or about 265 at the crank. This was still running rich and Steve worked on a new one for me. I didn't have a chance to dyno it since the change over, but I did take it to the track and changed the chips there. The newer one made the 230 at the wheels chip feel downright slow, so I'm not sure what its output is, but it is more then "seat of the pants", because my top speeds and exiting speed where up. I'm betting its at least 10hp more so 276 at the crank is realistic. Our engines are similar, although mine used a 20/21 cam and is twin plugged and set for higher octane (94 min) fuel. I did use higher compression Mahles which are key (listening Jeremy? ) The point is that Steve W knows how to get the most out of that engine. He got 225 at the wheels on my brothers hot rodded euro 3.2!

I would be really interested in the spec of your brothers car because it sounds a lot like mine - euro 3.2 with 993 Supercup cams, SSIs and 2-out MB911 muffler, rod bolts race valve springs. If Steve Wong already has a chip for a similar spec engine then that may be a good place for me to start. FWIW, I am making around 245fwhp (less than 210rwhp) with issues like running rich still to be solved. If your brother is getting 225rwhp then that gives me great optimism!

Thanks,
Richard

[JeremyD]

Richard - I definitely recommend you give Steve Wong a call - especially with your set up...

[89911]

Originally posted by 911-32
I would be really interested in the spec of your brothers car because it sounds a lot like mine - euro 3.2 with 993 Supercup cams, SSIs and 2-out MB911 muffler, rod bolts race valve springs. If Steve Wong already has a chip for a similar spec engine then that may be a good place for me to start. FWIW, I am making around 245fwhp (less than 210rwhp) with issues like running rich still to be solved. If your brother is getting 225rwhp then that gives me great optimism!

Thanks,
Richard

The first few dyno runs with the original chip were producing barely 200hp rear wheels and he was dissapointed. This engine is really mostly stock, aside from the pistons, cam. He did have is injectors tuned and matched along with extrudehoning the intakes (which I also did). The next chip that Steve made with the dyno data hit 225. Needless to say I was a bit p*ssed since I spent thousands more for twin plugging and 3.4 Mahles and only had 5 more hp to show. That does not paint the total picture though. My cars torque band is great through the whole power curve and produces much more. Also the Torque was pretty close to the hp, around 225. Since the newer change, I'm not sure what the output is of mine, but again I'll estimate 235-240rw. For the money, the higher compression 3.2 and cam is the best bang for the buck. You'll have as much power as a 3.6 for the price of some P/C's and cams.

[Jeff Alton]

Ralph, will do. The rest of the parts are even on order already......

Jeff