Why would you ever want to do that? R12 goes for 10 times that amount!

I'll never run 134 or R12 in my car again, after using ES12a. Far more efficient, and 3 cans at $6 each, fills a completely empty system...

It seems as if R134a is following the same path that R12 did several years ago.... I wonder if it too will soon be the precious commodity that R12 is today???

I just had my house A/C refilled and the tech was saying something about this. Just what we need is to lose R22 now!

JoeA

wonder if the magical formula of Industrial es12a would work in the house system......

where do you source the es12a, patrick?
ryan

Found mine at Ebay but now have found a guy locally who sells it.

Here is ES-22 for houses:

http://befreetech.com/envirosafe.htm

Same seller has ES-12. Do not know anything about him but found him with a quick Google search.

JoeA

www.autorefrigerants.com/

I purchased the Enviro-Safe Industrial grade es12a, which is supposed to have a little more punch than the es12a...

Today with 88* outside temp, 90mph highway speed, and 180* oil temp, I was seeing 35* at the vent:D :D :D :D :D

Bump to a wonderfully helpful thread. And I apologize in advance if another thread has covered this subject since. I saved this one...

Based upon the information on this thread, I purchased a case of Industrial grade es12a over the winter and looked forward to borrowing some gauges and installing it in my '88 Carrera for the summer. Like most of us with similar cars, I have a slow, slow leak that drains the system over the winter months. The system was empty (compressor did not turn) and I installed 2 cans. I'm not getting the vent temps everyone claimed. But based on the weight calculations, it seems that I should install another can. Problem is, I'm seeing 60 psi on the low side at 75 degrees and you guys say it should be around 32 to 42 at 80 degrees. I'm afraid to install the third can. Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Jim

for reference. completely new system. ie everything replaced!$$$$$ w/R-12 37degrees out of a '87. no add on gizmos.

Guys, I ordered some Duracool and added two cans ($8ea) to the system and WOW!! 45 * at the vents. It has been five weeks - here in Alabama - and still strong 45* as of yesterday. Good stuff.

Hey Joe!

Let me know next time your free. I need to get rid of the 134a (oops, I guess I held the valve open accidentally), and try ES12.

Also, who carries it here in town?

Thanks,
Greg

Ooops,

Posted before I saw the new posts with web addresses.

Greg

I have not used my AC since I bought the car...well once. I was told the hoses leak and I would have to spend $2000 to replace hoses and some other stuff. I also don't like to kill the ozone and increase global warming.

This is the especially bad after effect I was also trying to avoid.


It seems they will eventually have a system that is totally benign and won't leak. I may try it then. There should also be a system that runs off the battery and not the crank. Acura has this I think.

My AC is non-existant, blows air at outside temps. Is this a good indication ALL the refrigerant has left the building? Can I safely disconnect and service the hoses and such? I contemplated removing the AC entirely, but it was 96 a couple weeks ago (in May, in the Midwest!) and that black car was hot hot hot. I'd like to get the slow leak fixed and recharge with something DIYable. I'm not interested in paying two-thousand bucks for a conversion and every HVAC guy I talk to has a different opinion on what to put in there. I had a chance to buy a twenty-pound tank of R12 black market for $200 ten years ago, almost wish I would have now. But hindsight is 20-20. What to do?

I can't justify doing anything untill I correct my leaking hoses. That and maybe some other stuff...I haven't run the AC in several years. I also don't like stuff that is bad for the ozone. I know there will be a solution that is not only enviromentally friendly but a revised AC that is lighter and doesn't take power off the engine. That would be worth buying...until then I will drive when the sun is cooler. I also found that using a car cover and leaving the window open really helps reduce heat when parking.

Hi!

Yeah, I've been using the EnviroSafe stuff for about 4-5 years and yes, it's cool (pardon the pun)!

I used the pick-up tube of a sandblasting gun attached to the ac to pull vacuum. Worked like a charm!! Think Venturii effect. I think I was able to pull about 10lbs., which was fine for this stuff.

In fact, it states somewhere on the web site that you don't need to do anything to add the product. I also recall that you don't have to worry about a drier either, but I'm not sure if I agree.

I understand that 134 creates HF acid with water, so I see the reason for the drier in that system. I also understand that it removes moisture, but since it's "closed" I don't really know what to say.

In any event, I ended up putting my drier in the oven for a few hours (~250F) to drive out any moisture that had accumulated (assuming the desiccant can be dehydrated).

Everything seemed to work, then 2 weeks later, I sold the car.

Now, I'm in the beginning stage of getting the AC in the P-car to work. I need to get a hose made. Everything seems to be in order except the one hose. Once I get that fixed, I'll share my results.

I'm contemplating using one of the "pro-coolers", and now just looking at the web site, am contemplating starting from scratch. I might as well get all the hoses changed, and since the system has been open (I have no idea for how long), I should consider biting the bullet and getting the system. It's ~$1212 for everything (free shipping).

If anyone is interested, I wonder if we could get a list deal??!! I'm in. It's been about 100F in Redlands the last few days.

Brad

Got the leak fixed in my C2 Turbo and filled her up with recently bought R12 off ebay.If memory serves me right,the temp guage showed 42 at the center vent..yeehaaaw... O forgot to mention bought---- four---2 lb cans for $100 shipped ($12/lb )

Update: '88 carrera. In my garage. Ambiant air temp 75'. No vacuum on the system. Added the third can of industrial es12a with engine RPMs at 2,000. Low side pressure 42, air temp from center vent dropped from 65 to 45!! How low will it go when I'm on the highway?!?!? Brrrr.... Bring on the summer!!

the real test is when its 115 degrees and 60-70% humidity!!!! ask me how i know. will posts results here in 3-5 weeks when monsoon season arrives.

Brad~ The Renne Aire system kit is the way to go. You won't find a cheaper deal out there!

I only added the Pro-Cooler R/D, as I knew my evap. & compressor were functioning. That and the addition of Industrial ES-12 did remarkably well.

Jim~ That's the nice thing about the es-12. When the vent temp reaches 32*, back of on the cooler control. The temp still stays cold, and now the compressor doesn't have to stay on.

I've had the es-12 in my car for a year now. I didn't change out the hoses, so some has definitely leaked out. I will be topping off my system in a few days... I just returned from a trip to Vegas last week. Driving through Baker the outside temp was 110*. At 100 mph, the vent temp was around 50*, oil temp at 205*. Definitely time to top off, as last year under the same conditions, vent temp was 35*.

Even if you don't go with the ES-12, the Pro-Cooler makes a substantial difference!!

why didnt porsche set up a test track wayy back when, here in the southwest! has it EVER BEEN 110degrees + in germany?????

I'm using the DuraCool product and have found it superior to R12 in my '87. Regarding leakage, I believe the DuraCool type products use a hydrocarbon based gas which is a much larger molecule so leakage should be way less than R12 or R134. I was thinking about using the R22 version in my house AC too. Note, the R22 version is odorized to alert user of leaks.
One concern I have is for liability in the event of a fire, damage, and bodily injury/death. Will my insurance company pay-out after finding out I used this type of product with all its warnings??? I think not! Can anyone respond to this?

I did a search on this last year and the conclusion I came to was that it is very likely that an insurance company will void coverage for any claim if they find out that you filled your AC system with a flammable and/or explosive gas. If they don't find out, no problem.

I suppose that's ditto if you use it in a home HVAC system too.

It was 90 degrees here today and 90 percent humidity..at least it felt like 90 percent humidity! On top of that the a/c was broke in the office all day and we have no windows where I work! I get in my Targa equipped car that doesn't have tinted windows, does have black leather interior and that's been baking in the sun all day and it's hotter than hell. Of course my 80' Porsche has 100 percent original a/c meaning it 100% doesn't cool! I give up...got home and ordered up the complete Rennaire kit and a case of industrial strength ES-12a! My credit card is bleeding but I'll be cool within the week! Woohoo!

Anyone out there have a need for a 26 year old York compressor, 26 year old hoses, and 26 year old evaporator? :)

1983 911 sc 3.0 stock ac system with new barrier hoses, flushed components, re oiled, new sanden 507 compressor I got 70 degree vent temps with R134 and 55 degree vent temps with hc 12a . This was @ 100 degrees 90 % humidity in my garage in FL . I believe HC 12A and Envirosafe are the same thing 20% butane and around 80% propane . Use at your own risk, ensure leak free system with hydrocarbon detector and enjoy cooler temps period.

To late for you now, you posted on a public bulletin board and if the insurance comapny have some sharp lawyer they could discover your postings.

Found this source a year or so ago....

http://www.peakenergy.net/envirosafe.htm

I don't understand the fire issue. The article say 1500 degrees F for ignition. How would that ever be a problem? Maybe if the gas filled a room and there was a fire also but it seems a low possibility. I am I wrong?

Hi!

Not to change subject, but I would not keep adding new cans of envirosafe to my system since the charge is a mixture of gases. I believe it's important to keep both in the original proportion, and it's likely that one of the gasses is lighter and therefore more prone to leave the system, than the other.

In other words, the propane might leak out before the butane, therefore, your mixture is not correct and things might not work properly/as efficient.

So, I would recommend that if you plan to add cans because of a leak, that you empty the system and re-fill with the correct ratio of gasses (which are in the can). After all, it's only a few extra $$.

Of course, it makes sense to just fix the leak in the first place.

Just my $0.02

Brad

Under IDEAL conditions, such as those generated for the Daisy Cutter fuel air bomb that was used in Afganistan, propane has about 195% the explosive yield of an equivalent weight of TNT. In practice, however, an accidental release of propane into atmosphere that is allowed to mix with air and then detonated, the explosive yield is only about 20% of an equivalent weight of TNT.

The possibility of propane in a AC system venting and reaching the perfect air/fuel mixture is very small, but not zero. If you have a leak that ignites you could also have a short-lived, but very hot, flame that may catch other things on fire.

In the 20th century, CFC's replaced hydrocarbon coolants because of the fire and explosion hazard, and toxicity issues. 1500 degrees is hot for your engine oil, but not for a spark plug spark, an arc from an electrical short, etc. Automobiles have plenty of ignition sources.

Having said all that, I think that the chance of an catastrophic accident in your Porsche with hydrocarbon coolant is extremely small, but if it happens, you'll make the front page.

Wholberg, I feel better now...I will just wait and see how this plays out. I saw the ES22 Ad for home units. That seems doable.