Info for R12 users
 

I thought I would pass this info along to all of you that still need or like AC in their cars. I recently had to replace a hose in my ac system and needed to replace the refrigerant. I had been reading some literature on the environmentally safe R12 replacements so I thought I'd give them a try. For the past three weeks of 110+ temps in Phoenix I'm running 55 degrees out of the center vents with a completely stock 80 SC system, including the York compressor. 45 PSI on the low pressure side at 113 degrees outdoor temps. With the cost of R12, $18 for a full charge is a bargain. Name of the product is Enviro-Safe.

Hey Chris~

Where can you get the stuff? Can you post a picture of the container of refrigerant?

I found it on the web from a place in Michigan. No EPA cert needed to purchase. I can't post pics now because my camera is on the fritz. autorefrigerants.com is the place. 5 oz replaces 15 oz of R12. Af ull system charge is 47 oz on my car, but I could only get 3 full cans in and it was full after pulling a vacuum.

Chris,

How hot does your oil temp get? Can you run your AC sitting in traffic without getting too hot?

About 180 as long as I'm moving. It shot up to 210 the other day sitting in a drive through line for about five minutes.

Thanks Chris!

I figured out my girlfriends camera; here's a pic.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1121911919.jpg

Chris
Did you have to replace all the R12 to use it or could you "top off"? Is this DIY'able?

My system was completely flat due to a leaking hose over the winter. It is compatible with R12, but because of the differences, 5 oz = to 15oz of R12, you could easily over charge your system. If you have access to a vacuum pump and a set of HVAC gauges, you can do it yourself. The hardest thing for me with the York compressor was removing the compressor from the mounting plate to connect the hose to the low side, then securing the compressor to run the system to get actual pressures.

I forgot to mention that you would need to recover the R12 if you were going to replace it. Your system will pretty much tell you when it's full by not allowing anymore refrigerant in.

How do you evacuate the system when you refill it yourself? Did you borrow the equipment, and if so, what did you use?

Chris,

Used this stuff for years now and love it. First batch was called freeze-12 but the last batch was ES-12. Outlet temps on my "airport car" have been in the 38-40 degree range, and thats excellent in Phoenix when its 110 outside.

It will mix with R-12 and works much better than R-134. Price is $6-$7 a can. No, I do not sell it, just happy to find something to keep me cool in the summer here that I can afford!

There is a local seller if you are interested. I have a vacuum pump and gauges if anyone is interested. Charge is a bottle of an adult beverage! :)

Joe A

Kurt, I didn't have to recover my system because it was flat. I have the equipment to recover refrigerant, but not for R12, only commercial refrigerants. I don't have a recovery tank for R12. I just pulled a vacuum to remove any moisture from the system using a vacuum pump and gauges to see if the vacuum held to ensure no leaks.

Joe, could you let me know where the local supplier is? 38-40 is unbelievable. Normally 56 is a good output for auto AC.

edit; Joe, which compressor are you running?

hahah, how did you pull the vacuum?
Sorry...MY ac is working. I know you can get various R12 substitutes, so I'm wondering should this come up in the future for me.

Sorry Kurt, I used a vacuum pump. I have a commercial version, but Harbor Freight sells a pretty inexpensive one. You'll need a set of HVAC gauges to read how far it pulls into a vacuum and if it holds to show no leaks.

edit; I should add if you need to recover R12 or 134a the use of a recovery pump and recovery tank specific to the type of refrigerant to be recovered must be used.

thanks chris.

Is this stuff pretty much the same as Duracool? Which is pretty much higher grade propane?

alf

Alf, I'm not sure about Duracool. Normally the issue with any refirgerant is the temperature at which it's flammable. Here are the specs on these refrigerants.
Properties
R-12
R-134a
ES-12a

Atmospheric Lifetime Year
130
16
less than 1

G.W.P.(global-warming-potential)
(CO2=.05)
3650
600
4

O.D.P.
(R-12=1.0)
1.0
0
0

Thermal Performance
0
-8%
+12-32%

Oils Compatibility
Mineral
Synthetic
Both

Components, changes and/or wear
No
Yes
No

Potential Corrosion
Yes
Yes
No

Toxic Thermal Decomposition
Phosgene Gas
Hydrogen Fluoride Gas
None

Long Term Health Effects
None
Testicular Cancer
None

Short Term Health Risks
None
Can cause sudden death without warning


None

Leak Detection
Halide
Halide
Hydrocarbon

Boiling Point (F)
-21
-15
-30.4

Critical Temp. (F)
233.6
214
205

Auto-ignition (F) 0 psi
Nonflammable
1411
1585

Auto-ignition (F) 5.5 psi
Nonflammable
368
1585

bought a pound of freeze-12 here in arkansas about 2 months ago..it was $25, plus a $25 charge to put it in. unfortunately, i must have a leak because the 'freeze' only lasted a month. i'm wondering if they really knew how to fully charge a 911 though..not a car (read 'pickup truck') that they regularly see..;) we were understandably concerned about airflow across the condenser during the fill..they kept the lid up and put one of those huge shop fans (like 5 feet tall) behind the car..don't know if that was good enough. and what about idle speed while you fill? should you use 1000 rpm? 2000 rpm?
ryan

Ryan, if the system is in a vacuum prior to charging it should take an almost full charge. Running the system is really only needed to cycle the system and to check pressure readings. After the system is cycled it would probably only take another ounce or so. It sounds like you have a leak because any AC system is a "closed" system. The site I referenced earlier sells refrigerant with blue die added for leak checking. Hope that helps.

chris,
i'm pretty sure you're right..was just fishing for false hope..lol. anyway, the plan this fall is to replace all hoses with new barrier, new r/d and considering addition of an electric fan to the rear deck condenser once i decide on how to deal with the airbox clearance issue..probably just fab something that seals off around the filter and go without cover and see how that goes.
ryan

Ryan, are you running any type of rear tail or an 11 blade fan? This should pull enough air across the coil to dissipate enough heat to keep you cool. When I first acquired my car, I was tempted to change the turbo tail to a carrera and was quickly persuaded not to by several locals here in AZ. The increased airflow is definitely a plus with our heat.

chris,
i've got the 11-blade fan, but may upgrade the crank pulley someday to increase the ratio and speed of the fan, but the problem is needing airflow when there isn;t any..that is when sitting still..
ryan

So am I correct in that it can used to top off R-134a.

I'm wondering the same thing Bobby... I've got 134a in mine too, and a slow leak that requires the system to be refilled every 2-3 months... Prior to switching from 134a, the r-12 had to be topped off every 6 weeks or so, but was definitely colder... I was wondering if this stuff is colder than 134, and 12... Would it be better to flush out all the 134a & run this instead?

Patrick,

Evacuating makes more since when you think about. I don't know why I said top off anyway considering there isn't much if any 134a left in my system. What I meant to really ask is if it can be used without changing the lubricants in the system. That's what I was gleaning from reading the specs anyway.

The answer is yes; it is compatible with both R12 and 134a. The manufacturer also claims that it is up to 32% more efficient than both R12 and 134a. And for those of you with slow leaks, it's ozone friendly.
It can be used to top off a system, but I would definitely use gauges if you have access to them to prevent over charging. 5 oz = 13.3 oz 134a.

Wow...compatible w/ both. So to use the right gauges---> I have a setup with 3 lines. A fill line and two others each with gauges. I suppose I fill up the lowside and measure the pressure on the high side until the pressure's correct?

Kurt, if your system is completely flat you can measure the amount of the initial charge simply by knowing how many ounces you have put in. I know the SC models with factory air hold 47 oz of R12 (Bentley manual). The middle (yellow) hose on your gauges is for charging and the (blue) low side is for measuring pressures. If you can get the low side hose connected to the low side on the compressor while it's still in the car you can read pressures with the system running. Typical gauge readings should be between 32psi and 42 psi at 80 degrees. Mine read 47psi at 110 degrees outdoor temp.

Chris,

I am using the stock rotary compressor that came with the '85 911.

Believe the guy selling the gas locally is : autocoolrefrigerantsAThotmail.com . (replace the AT with @) Name is Terry DeFalco and tell him Joe from the Jag group sent you.

JoeA

Thanks Joe.

Jeez Joe... 38-40 at the vent? I'd be spending my Arizona summer's in the car, not the house!!:D

Read this.

http://www.vasa.org.au/pdf/hydrocarbons/maclaine-cross.pdf

John

Wow. I'm not sure if this stuff contains propane, but I'll get the MSDS sheets on it. Wouldn't R134a do the same thing? It has a lower flash point at 0 psi 1411 F, and a much lower flash point at 5.5 psi 368 F. The hydrocarban retains the same flash point 1585 F at 0 psi or 5.5 psi.

Sorry to belabor this...just want to be clear since I just had a new compressor put in and the lines flushed. If I get some of this stuff, and let's say there's a small leak that takes a few months to be noticeable, can I top off with this stuff without evacuating the whole system, or will I get pressure-creep where everytime I top off, the overall pressure of the system continues to grow until, i can't top it off anymore. It's all just air in the system?
Thanks.

Kurt, if the system is not pulled into a vacuum state, it is very difficult over charge it. The differences in the refrigerants is the weight. If you do top off, your system will basically tell you when it's full because it won't accept anymore gas.

John.... Where did you find this?? Very interesting!
I'm no rocket scientist, or even an engineer for that matter.... Just a guy with, hopefully, better than average common sense!

That link unveiled a rather frightening, and very unscientific engineering experiment gone horribly wrong! Who would ever put themself in an enclosed environment, fill with a gas, and then light a match to test flammability, or lack of?? This guy gets my vote for the Einstein award for the year!! IMO, this was a very flawed test, totally lacking any credibility... I suppose a lab rat would get cancer after consuming nutrasweet in an amount equal to its body weight daily for a year. Does that mean if i consume 1 packet a day in my morning coffee, it will be the cause of cancer for me??

I'm always suspicious of a new product, when it sounds too good to be true... I'm sure the stuff works well, and will more than likely run it in my ride if I can purchase it online...

From Chris' posting of the specs, it does appear to be almost 4 times as flammable than 134a? I have to question the likelihood of the material in the sytem ever being exposed to an ignition source though... I had an aftermarket A/C system on a former car I had in the 80's, where fittings failed on me several times. The r-12 evacuated so quick, it looked like the radiator just blew the lid off of a car overheating. The point I'm trying to make, is that would probably be the necessary amount of refrigerant to cause an explosion when properly exposed to an ignition source. Any minor leak in the system would probably not be enough to ignite an explosion:confused:

Patrick, just the opposite on the flammability. R134a is almost 4 times as flammable as the hydrocarbon at 5.5 psi. Still, these are both disturbing articles. As I stated in my original post, I thought I'd give it a try. Might be time to breakdown and do the R134a retrofit.

Does anyone have any data on R134a having similar risks?

Sorry! I always get those flammability/ignition numbers backwords... If that is in fact the case, wouldn't 134 be 4 times as ignitable as es-12?????

The es-12 product should be far safer in theory then.... Right??

Jim~

If the specs that Chris accessed are indeed accurate, 134a should be banned as it would be far more likely to cause an explosion than r-12 or es 12.....???