'87 factory sport suspension?

[Tut]

Was there such a beast? If so, what was it comprised of? What size: torsion bars; sway bars? What was the option #?

Thanks.

[S785Carrera]

I am not sure about a "sport suspension" option, but on my '85 Carrera it came with a "sport shock absorbers" option. (option number 474)

Mike

[Bill Verburg]

The Carrera sport suspension M474 was Boge HD shocks.

The more sporting cars M491 and 930 got Bilstein HD shocks

In some markets there was also a sport package which was f/r spoilers, wheels, tires and bilstein shocks

[Tut]

Thanks. No changes to torsion or sway bars?

[Nine9six]

I believe the option code M491 included larger dia ft & rear torsion bars.
M491 is a Turbo Look option for the Carrera produced from 84-89. which has the same suspension, brake package, and wheel flairs as a Turbo, sans the actual turbo unit.
Hope this helps...

[Bill Verburg]

I believe the option code M491 included larger dia ft & rear torsion bars

Nope, t-bars and sway bars are the same as all other Carreras for a given year.

Ts - 18.8mm f, 24.1mm(for 915 cars)/25mm(for G50 cars) r
Sways - 20mm(*22mm for G50cars) f, 18mm/21mm(for G50 cars**) r

*the 22mm bar was used starting w/ '85 on M491 & 930 from '86 on all Carreras

**the 20mm rear sway started w/ the '85 M491

[Dottore]

The M491 cars have larger diameter torsion bars in the rear only.

I have one of the cars and have had this confirmed.

Peter Morgan also confirms this in his definitive 911 model guide.

The rear sway bars on the M491 cars were also altered and the entire car lowered by 1.4cm.

[Ed Bighi]

Actually, 22mm front sway bars on the G50 cars. 21mm rear. At least that's what came stock on mine. Same as in my SC, but I put them there. Also, turbos of the same era had 22 front sway bars as well. But the turbos ran only 20mm on the rear. They made up for the difference by having bigger 26mm torsion bars there.

[Dottore]

Yes that's right.

The Turbos and M491 cars have bigger torsion bars and softer sway bars in the rear.

[Ed Bighi]

On another note, 930 torsion bars (same front/26 rear), 22/21 carrera sway bars and bilstein sports feels amazingly good and plenty stiff on the 930's that I have driven. I don't know why but it ends up feeling much better than these basic ingredients would lead you to believe. Maybe it's the anti-dive geometry in the front and the shorter trailing arms in the rear that add to the effect.

[Dottore]

Agreed Ed.

I think the wider track also contributes significantly to the great handling.

[87coupe]

My 87 has option 474 & has black shocks, wich I understand to be Boge shocks, however most of the option decoders I have seen specify Bilstein as the shock for option 474. Which is correct for option 474?

[Bill Verburg]

The M491 cars have larger diameter torsion bars in the rear only.

I have one of the cars and have had this confirmed.

Peter Morgan also confirms this in his definitive 911 model guide.

then please notify the factory that they have no clue as what they put in their cars.

factory spec is as I posted( I did make a typo that I will correct)

[Bill Verburg]

Actually, 22mm front sway bars on the G50 cars. 21mm rear. At least that's what came stock on mine. Same as in my SC, but

Isn't that what I said?

[Ed Bighi]

I think so Bill. But when I first read it, it seemed that you mentioned 915 in the parenthesis for the sway bar sizes. My mistake.

[Bill Verburg]

My 87 has option 474 & has black shocks, wich I understand to be Boge shocks, however most of the option decoders I have seen specify Bilstein as the shock for option 474. Which is correct for option 474?

According to the factory(but what do they know?) Boge HD

the sporting cars like M491 and 930 and real Carreras(no offense intended to the '84 -89 owners) got bilsteins

[Ed Bighi]

One of these days I am going to throw a set of rear 26 turbo torsion bars, G50 carrera sways along with bilstein sports in my sister's 84 carrera just to see what it will feel like. While I know what 23/30 feels like since I have that on my SC, along with what 22/28 or 22/29 feels like since I have driven plenty with that setup, I want to see if the standard late turbo setup on bilstein sports will approach that "just right" feeling I get when I am in a 930 with the same specs. I want to see just how much the shorter trailing arms and revised a-arm mounting geometry really do. Or maybe find what is the lowest ammount of modifications to achieve the biggest result is in an SC or Carrera. All while being able to drive hard through crappy streets if need be, but still being decent on the track. Not something I can do without losing tooth fillings in my sc which weighs in at 2250 on the torsion bars mentioned above. And all on factory parts since I have been into this sort of thing lately. After all, other than the shocks, everything else can be had from a junkyard. If I like it, I just might ditch the 23/30 on the SC and put on standard turbo items. After all the car is light enough to increase their effect.

While on the subject of suspensions, I have always wondered what the RUF CTR ran on. I know it ran on bilstein sports or some other custom bilstein valving. I know the sway bars on that car were not the adjustable through the body type. They were a standard carrera design with the only difference being their size of 23 front and 22 rear. But I always wondered if it ran on stock turbo torsion bars. If if did, they worked great. No test of that car ever mentioned it being too softly sprung.

[Bill Verburg]

Besides the factors you mentioned, the wider track, wheels and tires will make a big difference as well.

The short trailing arms and raised pick ups only make a noticable difference in longitudinal motion. The others all the time

[87coupe]

Originally posted by Bill Verburg
According to the factory(but what do they know?) Boge HD

the sporting cars like M491 and 930 and real Carreras(no offense intended to the '84 -89 owners) got bilsteins

So are the Boge HD inferior to the Bilstein HD? If so why? And why are the 84-89 not real Carreras?

[Ed Bighi]

Originally posted by 87coupe
So are the Boge HD inferior to the Bilstein HD? If so why? And why are the 84-89 not real Carreras?

This carrera thing is just some old saying that started back in 84 when they started calling all basic 911's carreras. The argument being that before that time, the "carrera" moniker was only used on the highest performance versions of a model. Even though I own a carrera, and am therefore biased, there is some truth to that statement. Just like how a 911 is not a 356 and a 996 is not a 911, and so on. Nothing serious here, just converstation topic for when drinking beer with fellow Porsche buddies. But really, in the end a Porsche is a whatever model the Porsche factory decided to call it. Be it Jalapeno, Oregano, Basil, Sauerkraut, Grits, whatever. Just like how if some big guy named Butch decides to have a sex change and call himself Suzy, he is now Suzy. It's what it says on the driver's license right? Or the title of a car for that matter. Take it or leave it.

Now, as far as Boge, which I find to be a damn good shock, here is how it goes. While I am not too familiar with Boge, I just look at them when my Carrera is up, I can tell you a few things about Bilstein. I like them more than Boge or even Koni. Even though Konis are adjustable. It's a monotube shock as opposed to a twintube shock. Twintubes are conventional. Monos are not. On a monotube shock, the oil is in constant separation of the gas. So no bubbles form. This is great for extremely bumpy situations that last for a long time where shocks can actually overheat. This does not happen with Bilstein. Also, by virtue of it's monotube design, a Bilstein's body actually provides more structural integrity which is a big plus in mcpherson strut applications like the front of a 911. Also, since it's monotube, the oil is in contact with the outer wall of the body of the shock. It's not isolated within an inner tube as in a twintube shock. Because of this, the oil and the shock itlself has an advantage in staying cool. This is more of a plus in rally applications or a mixture of an extremely bumpy surface that the car is driven on for a long period of time. But there is another gain here. The shock lasts longer. Much longer. Sometimes more than a decade with very little degradation.

Bottom line is this. Boge or maybe Sachs gives you a very good conventionl shock. Better than what comes stock on most other cars that don't come with Bilstein. In fact they last a very long time. If it weren't for Bilstein, Boge would be even better regarded. They aren't bogus at all. With Koni, you get adjustability. With Bilstein, you get a damn good shock that is strong as hell and lasts just about forever. To get a better shock, you have to go remote reservoir and spend big bucks. And don't buy HD. It's a bilstein monotube and is nice an all. But why bother if you are spending the money. Just get the sport already. And in the front too because the front of the 911 is a trunk. And when you are hauling ass over roads you don't know with a suitcase or two in the front, as when out of town on a trip, every little bit helps.