Steve,

Regarding writing for Golf Connoisseur, never thought I'd read this mag since I'm not really into golf BUT, a few months ago there was a great article about Porsche. It covered mostly vintage and enthusiasts but also referenced message boards (PP?) and the current state of Porsche. Was surprised to see the article in that mag and it took a sort of unique perspective for print, and had great quality pics. It was a wonderful article, not sure of the author, and I should have saved a copy. Did you have anything to do with that?

Regards,

Markus
'80 SC Targa

Uh, I wrote it.

Stephan

Stephan,

Congrats on a great piece! Now to get my hands on a back-issue...

Markus
'80 SC Targa

Let's get this back on track for a second. What I find disappointing about the Vette is how the power signs off Way too early, Here you are, right foot bending the floor with a great pull and then.... Gone, power signs off, I had an old girlfriend like that, she didn't last long, Chevrolet just cant get their power band right, what's wrong with torque all the way to red-line?? the only way to drive it is to short shift and when I see Craig in his turbo or Jack in the BB2 I'm going to need all that I can get.


Anyone think about the rear suspension?? It Sucks!!


Just my two cents....

Yeah, it's hard to imagine how they win the GT1 class at Le Mans four times in five years with such a pitiful car (since we are talking about the ZO6, which is basically a street-going replica of the LM car, not the C6).

Tell me again where the 911s were?

Stephan

In a different class being raced by privateer teams ;)

I am on your side Stephan, but you picked a bad example with that one !

"Golf Connoisseur"? Oh dear.

Stephan, maybe you should have a resource where those of us who enjoy your writing--but don't spend enough time in doctor's office waiting rooms to find all your articles--can read all your stuff in one place?

I'm aware that they were in a different class.

So you think the factory could have beat Chevy by running 911s in GT1? Those GT2 teams might have been privateers, but some of them got close to factory-level support.

stephan

Actually, I beat them pretty soundly. Even when I was being handicapped by the rules of the class. I have season points trophies for ASP to prove it. I was beating them with a 240 HP 2700 lbs car (at the time) while they were in 400+HP (plus intake and exhuast and cams) 3200 lb cars. I would just barely beat them but a win was a win.

Once I jumped to BP and got me my 460HP they could not come close to me.

I do not AX very much anymore. I did an event back in June and was pretty rusty, I had not raced for almost a year before that. Here are the pax results to prove I am not BSing you. Normally when I am not so rusty I am battling the #89 car for FTD. He beat me by over a second this day.
http://www.cfrsolo2.com/2005/2005_06_26%20ircc%20points_pax_.htm

The reason I get to drive lots of cool cars is because I sponsor and organize Autocross driving schools. I have put together 5 schools so far and hope to do more over the years. I usually put them on breaking even or at a loss but its o.k. I love to expose people to the Autocross sport.

I don't hate the Vette I hate the hype. Plus Corvettes seem to be magnets for untalented drivers, maybe even dangerous drivers who have no business driving such a powerful car. Every time there is a bad wreck in the SCCA a vette is involved. If you do not beleive me say so I will do some searching and show you pictures and videos. I can think right off the top of my head of 4 instances that are well documented online.

We lost our Florida stop on the National tour because a vette lost control and hit 2 course workers 100 feet off the course!!

What GM is doing with the C-6 is sweet from a gearhead point of veiw. I dont mean to take away from that. All the hype gets old after a while. Its still a bad ass car, no doubt about that. I look foward to seeing them at our local events.

My opinion, the Z06 is the best bang for the buck. On the other hand I am curious to see if it depreciates as fast as the stock Vettes. Didn't I also read that it is smaller and lighter than a new 911?

At 3,130 pounds, the ZO6 is a tiny bit heavier than most 911s though one pound (!) lighter than a Carrera S and substantially lighter than the Turbos. the ZO6 and C6 are both a little over an inch shorter than 911s though the wheelbase is way longer (105.7" versus 92.5").

Stephan

To truly get back on track - Steve haow about expanding per my previous post:
Steve -

I know there are 'rules' for disclosure of info prior to a certain magazine release date --- but do you have any pictures or any other subjective info you can give?

I am a 17 year old boy and just got to drive the brand new Corvette for my birthday (it was my dad's friend's car) i thought it was very cool. when we pulled up to stop lights all the girls would wave and say hi while there boyfriends would give us a jealous look the only thing that i really like was the sound of a big beefy american V-8 and the straight line acceleration. but when we got home from our hour long drive the friend left and my dad and i hopped into our porsche 911 and i was comparing notes in my head as we pulled up to stop lights and all the girls would still wave to me and say hi while there boyfriends would still give me jealous looks and i notice that the 911 gets a lot more looks cause it is so rare in our city, the corvette will after a while be a common sight as all the old farts waste there money and get them as far as the 911 performance goes it is the best in pretty much everything cornering, acceleration, speed, and getting as many number as there are girls (already got 32 within the past two months)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Cesiro
[B]Actually, I beat them pretty soundly. Even when I was being handicapped by the rules of the class. I have season points trophies for ASP to prove it.

Sure, I beat some of them also.
Looking at your PAX results leads me to believe your a pretty damn good driver and with a BP car you should soundly whip an SS car....as I should with an FP car.....but my driving sux.


Get a national level driver in a Z06......
I had one of those jump into my 914 at a practice event
recently. After a quick tour of the 901 shift pattern in the lanes, he went a second quicker....on his first pass and this was a very short course. He wasn't even working, just showing me his line. I didn't give him another chance to see if he could meet or beat his time his time in his 06...a second quicker still.

AX is about 60% driver, IMO. We have many 06 drivers who show up in their new cars & get whipped by 100 guys....seldom do they return. Autocrossing a high power to weight car takes LOTS of practice.

It's only when you get to the top level of the sport do you find which is the best car in a given class or across classes. Local stuff is nearly meaningless in this regard.....IMO:D

That would be the long rumored and often reported (or furiously leaked by GM flacks) Blue Devil project. Reputed to be 600 HP with supercharger, 2900 lbs, $100K plus. (GM also made much hay out of their suspension testing of the Cadillac CTS-V at the 'Ring as well..which still doesn't make it an M car.)

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1125069272.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1125069289.jpg

I've seen the standard C6 Z06 has on display at several race venues this summer. I think the subtle fender flares are the best addition over the base car...that, and trimming down the hideously large butt of the C5 cars.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1125068575.jpg

Tim

Stephan - what are your thoughts about the Z06 as a used car? I just can't see spending new car prices for it, but used might be a different story. Is there any way to guess what the ZO6 will cost in about five years? Just a ballpark figure is what I'd like to know. My guess is something like $20,000-$30,000.

My fears about buying a used ZO6 is wondering how thrashed it had been in its previous life. I think people who own cars like Turbos and F430s are reasonably nice to them, but I wonder about ZO6 owners... Can't imagine what the used value will be. Chevy is not gong to artificially limit production--the only limitation will be production capacity, since it uses the same tooling as the C6 and there's only so much of it--and they're talking about roughly 7,000 a year, so there should be plenty of them around five years from now.

Stephan

I'm 6,4 and sport a faux-hawk hairstyle. No Z06s for me I guess! Actually I don't really fit in my P-car unless my hair is really short. I actually had to go back to my hair stylist and tell him to shorten my hawk because it didn't fit in the posrche! hehe.

Nik

One factor for used prices may be the uniqueness of the z06 engine peices.

The early 90s ZR1 "king of the hill" used values suffered a lot becuse of the unique. out of production engine ($ 25K plus option!). The car is a collectible, but buyers got real nervous as the mileage accumulated .

"exotic" machinery that has been flogged would scare me, unless it was a Porsche because they like it.

Corvette could not make an attractive car so they just copied the hell out of Ferrari. There are a few parts of the car that have the Ferrari styling cues, but overall, it is butt ugly. The front end with the Ferrari style lights and hood scop ala 550 or 575 and the 430 wheels all look kind of nice. The side vents ala 456 or reverse 355. The rear end of the car and from the middle of the door back is not good. It is funny how little creativity Chevy has.

The only good thing about the Vette is that this will definitely put pressure on Porsche to step up. Porsche's infamous little 10 to 20 hp bumps and here there to spice up a model line during mid series will not make it any more. They need to bring out the big guns now.

To stay competitive, Porsche needs a GT3 with over 400 hp and the 997TT needs to have over 500 hp (without power package) or Porsche will start losing sales once the "newness" of the 997 model wears off.

Porsche surely has a real exciting line up scheduled for the end of the 997 series. Their marketing strategy is the best in the business when they can get away with it. The competition has steeped up (Ferrari is coming out with a Dino introductory level, the Gallardo is driveable, AM V8, 350s and 355s are getting cheap, Lambo 6.0s cost less than my TT cabriolet, and the list goes on and on) so now it is time for Porsche to be a trend setter as opposed to just keeping up with the competition.

Competition is good and we the consumer will benefit from it. I am glad to see the Vette posting good numbers, but I will never buy one until they make it somewhat attractive looking.

Man....post something about how you just drove a new supercar and this is what ya get..........Steve W must be kicking himself.

Steve, Don't get me wrong, the Z06 is quite a car, like the other guy, I'm just tired of the hype. most of the guys that buy the car are from the hotrod crowd and don't care of it's handling performance or what it was designed for , as far as Le mans is concerned, the cars are not the same, I spent many years building cars for Trans-am and IMSA and working for GM and Ford, when we built a car the rules said we only had to use the windshield frame, go figure.

I would rather drive a German car that will push going in and over-steer coming out....:D

Where were the 911s?
The 911s (actually the GT3RS) were busy winning their class for waaaay too many years for me to count. Waaaaaaay more than corvette has won.

Whadda ya say we petition ALMS to let em run without the handicaps?
Weight proportional to displacement, forget about inlet restrictions, lets start comparing apples to apples.
Corvette wouldn't stand a freaking chance against the GT3RS.

Holy Smokes...what a thread!

I am still eyeballing those early C5's. The values are dropping like rocks. I test drove a '99 with a Magnaflow setup and 58k miles. One owner (56yrs). 6 speed and just the basic options. $20k. It has dropped 5k in price over the last 3 months.

I found it to be a pretty nice car. I am 6'1" and I had plenty of room both head and leg. Fit and finish is not as nice as my '77 even after all these years. Shifting is sort of clunky (better than the 915 tho). Very good handling and acceleration. Good brakes etc.

As much as I love my 911's, you can build one hell of a C5 for track usage. Heck, you can build the hell of a SN95 Mustang and really tear it up. Yup they have the weight, but man that torque....

Mike
'77 911 3.0
'94 Mustang GT

LOL.....Some would say that car companies are geting better. Right. A zebra doesn't change it's stripes. Remember...Ford..."Quality is Job 1", Chrysler..."If you can find a better car, buy it" many took their advice. The Pontiac Bonneville was touted to be a better car than the BMW 525....right. On and on and on...Now, here we go again...This Corvette is THE one...come on...

As far as C & D goes, they've really f..ed up a lot over the years with their evaluation/reviews of so called great cars.

Vette a SUPER CAR, give me a break. A super car is about much more than mere numbers all of which the Vette is lacking.

Car and Driver loves Accords and cars that makes too much sense. Probably even like minivans. Wasn't Taurus car of the year once. Car and Driver definitely targets a different market with their magazine.

Sports cars are an emotional purschase. Car and driver tries to make rational decisions. If everyone was rational, there would not be Lambos, Ferraris, Bugattis, Zonda, Bentley, and maybe even cars like GT2s. I don't want a car that makes sense. I want one that gets my heart racing and makes me feel like a kid.

Sure a $ 65k Vette makes more sense than even my used 2001 Diablo . . . ON PAPER. Perhaps Car & Driver sells so many magazines because people having cars such as Accords, Camrys, and Vettes buy magazines like Car & Driver who make them believe that their Accords, Camrys or Vettes truly are the best choice.

If Car and Driver said these cars were boring or the Vette had good numbers, but was a cheap knock off of a Ferrari wanna be design, the magazine would offend its core market and lose sales.

The moral of the story is what else do you expert Car & Driver or one of their writers to say. They ain't gonna piss off their core market of average joe readers who idolize the Vette.

Is the car good. The numbers are great, but the car leaves a lot to be desired in looks and in the quality department. I drove a new Vette and took a few parade laps at a DE in one also. It had nice acceleration and pull, but the car does not have that sensory nirvana of even my slow arse 1995 355 in sound, feel, steering, shifting and then the feel of being inside the car was lacking even the exotic feel of excitment present even in cars such as the NSX.

Having super car numbers and truly being a super car is two different things to me. The Vette is a compromise (and has to be at its price range) and is far short of being a true super car.

The ZO6 looks kinda like a Lotus Elise hardtop.

I suppose if I had more money than Gates, I would own exotic hardware like Ferrari's and Lambo's. But I don't, and neither do most of us. No offense to those who own such hardware, but I personally just can't stomach the cost of upkeep on them thar autos.

I came very close to purchasing a Ferrari. It was a 1975 308 GT4. I love the Bertone body. It was a pretty nice car overall. Exotic looking. Neat engine (4 Webers, gotta love it!) Decent interior room and it sounded great! It was a part trade deal for my '73 911T and some cash. I drove the car and it was pretty great, but there was a small tick from the engine. The owner stated that it was time for service and it needed a new waterpump. I said, "heck, how much can than be?". Boy did I find out. I called my local dealer (Ferrari of Seattle) $750 for the pump. WHAT? Is it a magical waterpump? Is it made from unobtainium? As far as I can tell it is aluminum with a steel shaft, impeller and some seals and bearings. Thats it. I swapped a Subaru WP for a buddy of mine. It cost $13. Looked about the same kind of construction.

I later found out that you can get them for around $300 for a rebuild...what a deal. :)

Ferrari will always be a peak in the automotive world, but not always for the performance aspects. Not even for it's exclusivity either. I like 'em, but like anything that beautiful, the price you pay all the way around is usually waaay to high.

I think what makes a super car is the numbers. Once you remove the mystique, all that is left are the numbers. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder right? The C6 Z06 is going to beat a lot of cars is most areas so that qualifies it right off the bat.

As far as quality goes...a buddy of mine owns a F355. It has a sticker sitting in the window:

"The parts falling off this car are of the highest Italian craftsmanship and quality."

I will keep my 911 and look for a early C5. Now if a nice 348TB comes up...who knows?

Mike

Seems like an awesome car. Obviously a very well thought out performance machine. I don't think they look bad at all.

But.

But they just don't do anything for me. At any price. Sorry guys, but I'm a Porsche guy.

Yes, and several other cars that didn't cut the mustard... and when that didn't work, they resorted to having articles on how one of their reporters took a ride on a submarine or took a ride in in a jet, or reviewed earth movers. C&D is NOT a car enthusiast' magazine.

Didn't they once have a issue that touted Minivan's....Great article...if I were a soccer mom....Maybe that's their target market because they have lost their credibility in the real car market...

Minivans and vanilla sedans ARE the real car market.

For many years GM did nothing to develop the Corvette as a track performer due to corporate policy banning racing.
Rest assured that if GM wanted to build a car with a price point of $150,000 it would destroy all of the $200,000 Ferraris and Lambos with no problem.

Yea, when I think about it...you're right....

Re. Ferrari parts: The urban legend is that Enzo Ferrari insulted Ferruchio Lamborghini and Lamborghini went off and designed his own V12 supercar to get revenge. The truth is that Lamborghini tried to get an appointment at Ferrari to have the clutch replaced on his Ferrari, but they couldn't give him a slot soon enough. So Ferruchio had his own shop foreman or chief mechanic or whatever--an entirely competent guy, since Lamborghini manufactured farm tractors--do the clutch replacement himself.

After the job was done, the mechanic came into Lamborghini's office and put a clutch on his desk. "This is the clutch from your Ferrari," he said. "It cost us 500,000 lira [or whatever]." He put another clutch next to it, and it was obviously identical. "This is the clutch we use in our [model so-and-so] tractor. It costs us 2,500 lira."

Stephan

I just read the Z06 article in R&T and the Pontiac Solstice article in R&T and Autoweek. It sounds like Bob Lutz is making good things happen at GM. I'll never own either of these cars but hopefully he can also get the Silverado up to speed by the time I'm ready to replace my 01 model.

The thing that most impresses me about the Z06 is the frame. I can see a different motor and some bolt on suspenstion and body bits but to actually build a special aluminum frame for this low volume car is impressive.

The way they do it economically is to use all of the very same tooling they use for the steel frame, which they were originally told "couldn't be done."

Stephan

No doubt about it. Older Ferraris and Lambos can be maintenance nightmares. That what you get with the handbuilts. One car can be reliable and the next car off the line will constantly be broken. My 355 has 20k miles and has basically had no issues except the valve guide update and services. The new cars are more consistent. Nevertheless, the Italians have a certain feel and sound to them that make them so special and that sound and feel cannot be duplicated by American muscle or even the German cars.

Wow! This thread reminds me of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - when Pirsig used a small shim of aluminum made from a beer can and was flabbergasted by the response from his friend....the fellow was offended by the idea that such a cheap material was to be placed on his BMW bike.....no matter that it made sense in a mechanical way.....there was just too much human emotion connected to his conception of fine German machinery to deal with his bike as a complicated piece of metal...

Pirsig seemed to think that both views were valid, and sought a way to unify them. I don't know that I can do that. But I know that my allegiance to Porsche is a product of the racing of 2 or 3 decades ago. So tomorrow's legends are being created today. If today's Z06 will win races more easily than current 911's, then how it drives and feels - no matter what it's shortcomings - will be remembered romantically. After all, I've heard 917's (the Doyen of cars to me) didn't drive at all well early on. And the handling of 911's was..... well ...tricky.....before it mellowed in memory to something remembered fondly.

I would honestly love for my son to have a good feeling about Porsche in 30 years. But wishing is no guarantee. Where is Alfa Romeo? or Auburn? or Duesenberg? In the dustbin of history. Porsche needs to take threats seriously.....

But beyond that - beyond the "cool" factor and mystery and wealth and good taste and all the other intangibles that a 911 brings with it (and I feel all of those too) there is a part of me that is really, really PROUD that America can make a world class car. Proud - and also ashamed to hear so many laugh and deride the Corvette - and ashamed of myself for having some of the same jealous feelings that were expressed here against the new Z06.

Especially when I think logically - after all, why WOULDN'T the richest and most technologically advanced country on earth be able to make a world-beating, serious sports car? Just because it hasn't lately is no proof that it can't.

I for one would like to drive one and see for myself. I like beauty and grace and history and romance. But I don't drive a horseless carriage. A cloth tent seems stupid to me. So do cloth sails on ships. So why not believe that aluminium is a good thing, even if it isn't pounded out over wooden frames in Modena, or calculated on a slide rule in Stuttgart? Even if it is hydroformed or CNC'd or whatever in a Detroit suburb......after all, according to Pirsig, Quality does exist.....