Jsut drove the ZO6...

[Craig 930 RS]

Man....post something about how you just drove a new supercar and this is what ya get..........Steve W must be kicking himself.

[Vonzipper]

Originally posted by Formerly Steve Wilkinson
Yeah, it's hard to imagine how they win the GT1 class at Le Mans four times in five years with such a pitiful car (since we are talking about the ZO6, which is basically a street-going replica of the LM car, not the C6).

Tell me again where the 911s were?

Stephan

Steve, Don't get me wrong, the Z06 is quite a car, like the other guy, I'm just tired of the hype. most of the guys that buy the car are from the hotrod crowd and don't care of it's handling performance or what it was designed for , as far as Le mans is concerned, the cars are not the same, I spent many years building cars for Trans-am and IMSA and working for GM and Ford, when we built a car the rules said we only had to use the windshield frame, go figure.

I would rather drive a German car that will push going in and over-steer coming out....

[sammyg2]

Where were the 911s?
The 911s (actually the GT3RS) were busy winning their class for waaaay too many years for me to count. Waaaaaaay more than corvette has won.

Whadda ya say we petition ALMS to let em run without the handicaps?
Weight proportional to displacement, forget about inlet restrictions, lets start comparing apples to apples.
Corvette wouldn't stand a freaking chance against the GT3RS.

[Shocker]

Holy Smokes...what a thread!

I am still eyeballing those early C5's. The values are dropping like rocks. I test drove a '99 with a Magnaflow setup and 58k miles. One owner (56yrs). 6 speed and just the basic options. $20k. It has dropped 5k in price over the last 3 months.

I found it to be a pretty nice car. I am 6'1" and I had plenty of room both head and leg. Fit and finish is not as nice as my '77 even after all these years. Shifting is sort of clunky (better than the 915 tho). Very good handling and acceleration. Good brakes etc.

As much as I love my 911's, you can build one hell of a C5 for track usage. Heck, you can build the hell of a SN95 Mustang and really tear it up. Yup they have the weight, but man that torque....

Mike
'77 911 3.0
'94 Mustang GT

[kqw]

Originally posted by SoCal911SC
[B...lways found it amusing how whatever new GM car was coming out (or was recently released) almost always seemed to get pretty glowing reviews. ...But then when that particular car was replaced by a new version, suddenly the replaced car was the biggest POS to ever cross a road. [/B]

LOL.....Some would say that car companies are geting better. Right. A zebra doesn't change it's stripes. Remember...Ford..."Quality is Job 1", Chrysler..."If you can find a better car, buy it" many took their advice. The Pontiac Bonneville was touted to be a better car than the BMW 525....right. On and on and on...Now, here we go again...This Corvette is THE one...come on...

As far as C & D goes, they've really f..ed up a lot over the years with their evaluation/reviews of so called great cars.

[D Hanson]

Originally posted by kqw


As far as C & D goes, they've really f..ed up a lot over the years with their evaluation/reviews of so called great cars.

Vette a SUPER CAR, give me a break. A super car is about much more than mere numbers all of which the Vette is lacking.

Car and Driver loves Accords and cars that makes too much sense. Probably even like minivans. Wasn't Taurus car of the year once. Car and Driver definitely targets a different market with their magazine.

Sports cars are an emotional purschase. Car and driver tries to make rational decisions. If everyone was rational, there would not be Lambos, Ferraris, Bugattis, Zonda, Bentley, and maybe even cars like GT2s. I don't want a car that makes sense. I want one that gets my heart racing and makes me feel like a kid.

Sure a $ 65k Vette makes more sense than even my used 2001 Diablo . . . ON PAPER. Perhaps Car & Driver sells so many magazines because people having cars such as Accords, Camrys, and Vettes buy magazines like Car & Driver who make them believe that their Accords, Camrys or Vettes truly are the best choice.

If Car and Driver said these cars were boring or the Vette had good numbers, but was a cheap knock off of a Ferrari wanna be design, the magazine would offend its core market and lose sales.

The moral of the story is what else do you expert Car & Driver or one of their writers to say. They ain't gonna piss off their core market of average joe readers who idolize the Vette.

Is the car good. The numbers are great, but the car leaves a lot to be desired in looks and in the quality department. I drove a new Vette and took a few parade laps at a DE in one also. It had nice acceleration and pull, but the car does not have that sensory nirvana of even my slow arse 1995 355 in sound, feel, steering, shifting and then the feel of being inside the car was lacking even the exotic feel of excitment present even in cars such as the NSX.

Having super car numbers and truly being a super car is two different things to me. The Vette is a compromise (and has to be at its price range) and is far short of being a true super car.

[Matt Holcomb]

The ZO6 looks kinda like a Lotus Elise hardtop.

[Shocker]

I suppose if I had more money than Gates, I would own exotic hardware like Ferrari's and Lambo's. But I don't, and neither do most of us. No offense to those who own such hardware, but I personally just can't stomach the cost of upkeep on them thar autos.

I came very close to purchasing a Ferrari. It was a 1975 308 GT4. I love the Bertone body. It was a pretty nice car overall. Exotic looking. Neat engine (4 Webers, gotta love it!) Decent interior room and it sounded great! It was a part trade deal for my '73 911T and some cash. I drove the car and it was pretty great, but there was a small tick from the engine. The owner stated that it was time for service and it needed a new waterpump. I said, "heck, how much can than be?". Boy did I find out. I called my local dealer (Ferrari of Seattle) $750 for the pump. WHAT? Is it a magical waterpump? Is it made from unobtainium? As far as I can tell it is aluminum with a steel shaft, impeller and some seals and bearings. Thats it. I swapped a Subaru WP for a buddy of mine. It cost $13. Looked about the same kind of construction.

I later found out that you can get them for around $300 for a rebuild...what a deal.

Ferrari will always be a peak in the automotive world, but not always for the performance aspects. Not even for it's exclusivity either. I like 'em, but like anything that beautiful, the price you pay all the way around is usually waaay to high.

I think what makes a super car is the numbers. Once you remove the mystique, all that is left are the numbers. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder right? The C6 Z06 is going to beat a lot of cars is most areas so that qualifies it right off the bat.

As far as quality goes...a buddy of mine owns a F355. It has a sticker sitting in the window:

"The parts falling off this car are of the highest Italian craftsmanship and quality."

I will keep my 911 and look for a early C5. Now if a nice 348TB comes up...who knows?

Mike

[450knotOffice]

Seems like an awesome car. Obviously a very well thought out performance machine. I don't think they look bad at all.

But.

But they just don't do anything for me. At any price. Sorry guys, but I'm a Porsche guy.

[kqw]

Originally posted by D Hanson
Wasn't Taurus car of the year once. Car and Driver definitely targets a different market with their magazine.....

Yes, and several other cars that didn't cut the mustard... and when that didn't work, they resorted to having articles on how one of their reporters took a ride on a submarine or took a ride in in a jet, or reviewed earth movers. C&D is NOT a car enthusiast' magazine.

Didn't they once have a issue that touted Minivan's....Great article...if I were a soccer mom....Maybe that's their target market because they have lost their credibility in the real car market...

[928ram]

Didn't they once have a issue that touted Minivan's....Great article...if I were a soccer mom....Maybe that's their target market because they have lost their credibility in the real car market...

Minivans and vanilla sedans ARE the real car market.

[911nut]

Originally posted by sammyg2
Where were the 911s?
The 911s (actually the GT3RS) were busy winning their class for waaaay too many years for me to count. Waaaaaaay more than corvette has won.

For many years GM did nothing to develop the Corvette as a track performer due to corporate policy banning racing.
Rest assured that if GM wanted to build a car with a price point of $150,000 it would destroy all of the $200,000 Ferraris and Lambos with no problem.

[kqw]

Originally posted by 928ram
Minivans and vanilla sedans ARE the real car market.

Yea, when I think about it...you're right....

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

Re. Ferrari parts: The urban legend is that Enzo Ferrari insulted Ferruchio Lamborghini and Lamborghini went off and designed his own V12 supercar to get revenge. The truth is that Lamborghini tried to get an appointment at Ferrari to have the clutch replaced on his Ferrari, but they couldn't give him a slot soon enough. So Ferruchio had his own shop foreman or chief mechanic or whatever--an entirely competent guy, since Lamborghini manufactured farm tractors--do the clutch replacement himself.

After the job was done, the mechanic came into Lamborghini's office and put a clutch on his desk. "This is the clutch from your Ferrari," he said. "It cost us 500,000 lira [or whatever]." He put another clutch next to it, and it was obviously identical. "This is the clutch we use in our [model so-and-so] tractor. It costs us 2,500 lira."

Stephan

[David]

I just read the Z06 article in R&T and the Pontiac Solstice article in R&T and Autoweek. It sounds like Bob Lutz is making good things happen at GM. I'll never own either of these cars but hopefully he can also get the Silverado up to speed by the time I'm ready to replace my 01 model.

The thing that most impresses me about the Z06 is the frame. I can see a different motor and some bolt on suspenstion and body bits but to actually build a special aluminum frame for this low volume car is impressive.

[Formerly Steve Wilkinson]

The way they do it economically is to use all of the very same tooling they use for the steel frame, which they were originally told "couldn't be done."

Stephan

[D Hanson]

No doubt about it. Older Ferraris and Lambos can be maintenance nightmares. That what you get with the handbuilts. One car can be reliable and the next car off the line will constantly be broken. My 355 has 20k miles and has basically had no issues except the valve guide update and services. The new cars are more consistent. Nevertheless, the Italians have a certain feel and sound to them that make them so special and that sound and feel cannot be duplicated by American muscle or even the German cars.

[RKC]

Wow! This thread reminds me of "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" - when Pirsig used a small shim of aluminum made from a beer can and was flabbergasted by the response from his friend....the fellow was offended by the idea that such a cheap material was to be placed on his BMW bike.....no matter that it made sense in a mechanical way.....there was just too much human emotion connected to his conception of fine German machinery to deal with his bike as a complicated piece of metal...

Pirsig seemed to think that both views were valid, and sought a way to unify them. I don't know that I can do that. But I know that my allegiance to Porsche is a product of the racing of 2 or 3 decades ago. So tomorrow's legends are being created today. If today's Z06 will win races more easily than current 911's, then how it drives and feels - no matter what it's shortcomings - will be remembered romantically. After all, I've heard 917's (the Doyen of cars to me) didn't drive at all well early on. And the handling of 911's was..... well ...tricky.....before it mellowed in memory to something remembered fondly.

I would honestly love for my son to have a good feeling about Porsche in 30 years. But wishing is no guarantee. Where is Alfa Romeo? or Auburn? or Duesenberg? In the dustbin of history. Porsche needs to take threats seriously.....

But beyond that - beyond the "cool" factor and mystery and wealth and good taste and all the other intangibles that a 911 brings with it (and I feel all of those too) there is a part of me that is really, really PROUD that America can make a world class car. Proud - and also ashamed to hear so many laugh and deride the Corvette - and ashamed of myself for having some of the same jealous feelings that were expressed here against the new Z06.

Especially when I think logically - after all, why WOULDN'T the richest and most technologically advanced country on earth be able to make a world-beating, serious sports car? Just because it hasn't lately is no proof that it can't.

I for one would like to drive one and see for myself. I like beauty and grace and history and romance. But I don't drive a horseless carriage. A cloth tent seems stupid to me. So do cloth sails on ships. So why not believe that aluminium is a good thing, even if it isn't pounded out over wooden frames in Modena, or calculated on a slide rule in Stuttgart? Even if it is hydroformed or CNC'd or whatever in a Detroit suburb......after all, according to Pirsig, Quality does exist.....