Bad oil leak on right turn (long)??

mattduncan · 08:15 PM

Hey all.

Just got done racing at ThunderHill in a performance driving school. Awsome! One big problem though...

On hard right turns, specificaly outward tilting right hand turns (turns 3,5B, and 14/15 for those that know the track). The oil at first glance would appear to be coming from the bottom of the top driver side valve cover. This is not a little oil, I'm talking LOTS of oil. Enough to instantly hit the cat and smoke BIG TIME, cover the sheet metal all the way up to the belt, drench the lower valve cover, and splash my tires and brakes. I was black flagged 3 times due to it. I took the driver tire off and cleaned up the mess to try and identify where it was. Started the car, let it idle, reved the engine; no leak. Made sure valve covers were tight (I just put the engine back in the car 2 weeks ago after fixing air/oil leaks at which time I replaced the valve gaskets and nuts/washers) and took out the car again. Same problem. One of the other porsche guys said this was typical of an over-filled oil tank. That would be to obvious. Through out the day I checked the oil 5 times, all in between the dots. After racing, I drove the car 70 miles north to Redding with no problems at all..

What could cause this? Where could the leak be coming from? Could the dip stick be wrong?

Any help would be appriciated. After a month of not driving my car due to the engine being out, this is very, very frustrating.

Jim Sims · 08:25 PM

Yep, most likely too much hot oil (oil expands significantly when heated). Right turn throws it through vent hose into air box or air cleaner, drain in bottom of same either lets it drain down to rubber valve just above and behind starter where it blows all over everything or if hose is missing it drips onto the top of engine and runs down lots of places. Or oil is thrown into engine breather hose which is loose or disconnected at the breather and then the oil leaks all over the top of th engine. Was the engine running when you checked the oil level? Jim

DonDavis · DonDavis's Garage

Between the oil filter console and the oil tank is an o-ring. It gets rigid over the years and will be a source of a leak. Normal driving will not cause much to come out but when you get into some heavy cornering it will puddle under the filter then you make that long right turn and it spills over and onto your exhaust.

I was on a drive with some Pelicans and checked my oil at a gas stop. We had gone through some good twistys and when I opened the engine bay, there was a significant amount of oil under my filter. I believe it was Joeaska that was behind me and said when we were in right turns I would begin smoking.

5 bucks later and some good cleaning and it was all better. There's also a spongy/foam thing that goes between the console and tank that hides the mating surfaces. It will be soaked with oil.

I did a quick search for the part # but no joy. The Pelican guys on the phone will find it in a snap!

Good luck and let us know what you find.

mattduncan · 09:22 AM

well guys, thanks for the replies but I don't think you understand. On right turns, the oil is all over the left side of the engine, not the right. It isn't coming out of the airbox or any other "part" that is on top of the engine. Like I stated, it apears that it is coming from the top, drivers side valve cover. What are your thoughts?

Yes Jim. All the times I checked the oil it was at operating temp with engine running, on level ground. Thermostat was open...

BReyes · BReyes's Garage

Do you have pics?

Maybe someone will be able to spot something awry on yours.

How many quarts in it? What hasn't been replaced? Just be careful, because this seems serious.

Good luck.

911mot · 911mot's Garage

Have you tried running it and jacking up the right side of the car to see if it leaks?
Maybe a warped valve cover or pinched gasket on the left side?
Wierd

Jim Sims · 08-26-2005, 01:13 PM

Year, model and induction system?

mattduncan · 08-26-2005, 03:04 PM

911mot,

That is a great idea. I'll try it. I took off the driverside tire and put the car at level to see if it would leak, but it didn't. Maybe if I try that, I'll find it.

It's an 82 SC, normally asperated with MSD ignition system.

I can't remember how many quarts I put in after the engine was removed, but I think around 10. I quadrupel checked the oil every quart after 8. Like I said earlier, can the dip stick be reading a wrong reading?

Jim Sims · 08-26-2005, 03:14 PM

Does the car still have the OEM 82 CIS fuel injection?

mattduncan · 08-26-2005, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Sims
Does the car still have the OEM 82 CIS fuel injection?

Yes, not "from the factory", but OEM. I replaced them maybe 2 years ago.. When the engine was out I checked the seals and functionality. They are fine....

Jim Sims · 08-27-2005, 03:34 PM

Any work done on the cam towers? How do the sealing plugs in the cam towers look on the driver's side forward end? Jim

mattduncan · 08-28-2005, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jim Sims
Any work done on the cam towers? How do the sealing plugs in the cam towers look on the driver's side forward end? Jim

It's factory cam. No work done. Where are the sealing plugs located?

kqw · 08-29-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mattduncan
It's factory cam. No work done. Where are the sealing plugs located?

Yes,

Where are the sealing plugs on the cam towers?

Walt Fricke · 08-29-2005, 12:42 PM

There are two sealing plugs (thinking generically): A largish steel one like a shallow cup, which covers the end of the cam and is maybe 47mm in diameter. And a smallish aluminum one above it, which seals the end of the cam/bearing spray and journal lubricating bar.

The spray bar is under engine oil pressure more or less all the time. Any time you ran the engine with this plug missing you'd have quite a bit of oil flowing out - almost as much as if you disconnected the external oil line back by the distributor. I doubt you'd miss this - in fact, I know you'd know it was always dumping oil.

The steel part could be different, I suppose. It holds oil which is done with its lubrication job, and because the cam bearing has two holes in it to allow oil in that space to get back to the oil pump eventually, oil there can't be under much pressure. Maybe at higher RPMs some pressure could build up there? A leak at its top? Still, none of this seems likely.

These plugs are hidden behind the front engine tin onthat side - the vertical stuff. In fact, if you look, the steel cup is behind the three 10mm head bolts in that area, and the spray bar plug would be just outboard of that area.

I'm just as baffled as everyone else about this problem. I'd start pulling things off, starting with the valve covers, to see what I could see. Loose rocker shaft? But why not all the time (there is some positive pressure usually inside the crankcase, and it can pump oil out holes much faster than you'd expect even if the holes are not large and are above any kind of oil level line).

Walt Fricke

kqw · 12:51 PM

Jeeze Walt...you may have solved a problem that many here have been chasing for months. I've looked and looked...added rocker shaft seals, sanded valve covers, checked head studs etc, etc but still get that little drop every now and then.

Man, oh man...if what you describe solves the issue, I owe you big time.....

You wouldn't, by any remote chance have a schematic or picture of where to look, would you?????????

Walt Fricke · 08-29-2005, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kqw
Jeeze Walt...you may have solved a problem that many here have been chasing for months. I've looked and looked...added rocker shaft seals, sanded valve covers, checked head studs etc, etc but still get that little drop every now and then.

Man, oh man...if what you describe solves the issue, I owe you big time.....

You wouldn't, by any remote chance have a schematic or picture of where to look, would you?????????

Whoa, The Fox

Working backward: the Pelican site has exploded parts diagrams. Just look at any of the ones for a 911 engine and look at the cam towers. While the perspective in the diagrams is usually from the rear, you should be able to see where this area (the sealing plugs) is. I think it would be possible to pull the vertical sheet metal in that area with the engine in the car to inspect things, but I've never had occasion to need to - it is a much more passive end of the engine, at least on the left side.

But I've never had a leak associated with those plugs. I've chased other leaks like everyone else, but I've never had one there. The one time that neck of the woods was overly grimy (but hardly disabling) beyond the normal grime it was due to a leaking rocker shaft seal. And I think a slow leak is improbable given the construction of the parts. The original question concerned a leak which was intermittent, lateral G related, and anything but slow.

If the most I ever had to worry about was a drop now and then, I'd think I had died and gone to 911 engine heaven. Splashing oil on your tires, lots of smoke, getting black flagged on the track, now those are problems. I was using my sometimes overly fertile imagination along with my intimacy with the fairly simple parts and systems (in which I am hardly alone on this board) to hypothesize a cause.

I installed the RSR rocker shaft O rings. I still get some leakage (in the form of grime), pretty much as I did before doing this. It's worth doing, not too expensive, the shafts slide in and out as before, and every little bit helps. But not magic, at least not for my well used cam carriers.

Walt

kqw · 08-29-2005, 04:34 PM

Thanks Walt...

However...when was the last time you searched the Pelican parts catelog for a part. I'll be danged if I can see where you refer to the 911 engine diagram for Cam towers.

I'll check a local shop tomorrow for the info/parts

Thanks.

Walt Fricke · 08-30-2005, 08:36 AM

Sorry - I assumed understanding of the many resources on the PP site. Go to the PP main page. On left is a list of 911 stuff (along with lists of other stuff). Go to parts diagrams. Go to any of the three models. Go to engine, and camshaft etc stuff. For the '83 the big plug is #16, I notice. The small plug is not shown, but on the chain end of things you can see the little circle where that plug is, at that end of the spray bar.

This, and the electrical diagrams, are a wonderful thing Pelican has done, for those who haven't accumulated their own reference libraries, or for those who have but write from places removed from their own resources.

Walt

DW SD · 08-30-2005, 09:58 AM

Kind of OT, but I bought the PET CD ROM from Pelican for $14.95. I think it has all of the parts from all of the years of air-cooled 911s, schematics, etc. I cannot post pictures from it, maybe due to my ineptitude, but it was money well spent.
One trip to the local shop would be worth the money. I may suggest you order that for current and future projects.

Doug