California referee question

fastbacker · 09-13-2005, 04:58 PM

I've pretty much decided to put a 1997 3.6 Vram engine (from Steve Timmons) in my 82 backdated RSR project.

I was wondering if anyone knows whether the California smog referee will require the car to have a check engine light.

Thanks-
Craig Backer

Moses · 09-13-2005, 05:07 PM

Yes. Mine is hooked up to the no longer needed OXY light. Haven't been to the referee yet, Though.

Jeremy Cottrell · 09-13-2005, 05:07 PM

Yes, it has to be legal for 97. It will need an OBDII plug as well.

stlrj · 08:28 AM

Quote:

a 1997 3.6 Vram engine (from Steve Timmons) in my 82 backdated RSR project.

Yes, everything down to the exhaust must be intact.

How deep are your pockets?

I know because I had to referee my 74 in Petaluma when I updated to an 86 3.2 and they ran me through the wringer if you know what I mean.

Joe

livesportm · 09-14-2005, 09:10 AM

If your car is clean with the newer smog equipment it should pass and since all 911 engines look the same to smog guys they never know the difference. Having it approved by the referee is only worth doing if you plan on selling the car. If you don't go and do the referee thing then you can put any engine in it later.

cbeers · 09-14-2005, 11:19 AM

Really Joe?

how come you had to smog a '74?

They should be exempt through '75.......

I thought.

-Chris

cali74 · 09-14-2005, 11:39 AM

it was a rolling 30 year exemption, so he probably did it before 2004

anthony · 09-14-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fastbacker
I've pretty much decided to put a 1997 3.6 Vram engine (from Steve Timmons) in my 82 backdated RSR project.

I thought I remember reading that there was some advantage with these conversions to telling them that it was an engine from a '95.

code7rpd · 09-14-2005, 04:50 PM

I think the advantage of telling them it was from a 95 is that the 96+ cars (US versions) have an air pump of some kind. I don't think it would be wise to tell the referee that you have a Euro motor that is OBD I. I think that is yuo tell them you have a earlier motor like a 964 without the Cech Engine Light then you should be okay. I wonder what reference material the referee's use to compare the specs on the engine - If you knew what manual they use like the Mitchell Manual etc, then you may have an idea of what they plan to look for on yuor given year motor.

livesportm · 09-14-2005, 10:06 PM

The 95s are obd1 which is easier to pass and has only one O2 sensor.
The 96-98 are obdII which is tougher to pas and has 4 02 sensors.
The obdII requires that you have readiness codes and they plug into the car. I would not go to a referee and try to have it pass at a regular place as the stock year car it is. This is what I did several times. That way it doesn't forever have the new engine in its papers. Less hassle.

fastbacker · 09-20-2005, 04:59 PM

I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on a 97 Vram engine from Steve Timmons (Instant-G). I want to do this right and bring it to the California referee.

Has anyone in California done this for a 96-98 engine?

Thanks-
Craig Backer

jkarolyi · 09-20-2005, 05:07 PM

>I would not go to a referee and try to have it pass at a regular place as the stock year car it is.

Yeah...why make a fuss over it? Your average joe smog guy, especially at a test only place where most old Porsches are required to go these days, won't know the difference between an '82 SC engine and the Varioram. Just get it smogged as an '82 SC...should pass easily.

fastbacker · 09-20-2005, 05:23 PM

From what I've heard from others on this board, there's a good chance they will know the difference since there's a visual inspection which is outlined on the computer for the smog guy.

CB

stlrj · 09-21-2005, 02:02 PM

You might notice that the 3.6 transplants done on California registered cars are done on pre 74 bodies or off road only.

Something to think about...

Joe

bornrich · 09-21-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by stlrj
You might notice that the 3.6 transplants done on California registered cars are done on pre 74 bodies or off road only.

Something to think about...

Joe

That is not true. There are several here on the list with 3.6's in California reg cars with newer bodies (Widebody911 is a 77). You have to go to a ref and get the engine to pass smog for that year engine. Guys? Speak up! It can be done.

I myself, plan on do a 3.2 upgrade on my 81 after next years smog check. That give me 2 years to get all my smog issues cleared up be fore I have to go to a referee to get a sticker.

jkarolyi · 09-21-2005, 09:02 PM

>From what I've heard from others on this board, there's a good chance they will know the difference since there's a visual inspection which is outlined on the computer for the smog guy.

You're telling me that they're going to have a diagram of the 3.0 liter SC engine and exhaust for him to check out? Come on. As long as he sees a cat and 02 sensor, and it passes the sniffer, you should be fine.

fastbacker · 09-21-2005, 10:41 PM

I'm just looking for someone who has done this, not an argument. I really don't know the deal - that's why I'm posting. In a previous thread I got the following info:

"Okay, let me explain the process a bit. At least how I understand it.

If you have anything in there that is NOT the correct engine, e.g. a 3.2 or a 3.6 in that 82 SC, you will have to bring the car to a referee. This is NOT the smog joint on the street corner, this is a place that has books and knows everything about the engines and cars. These people will check the engine out and make sure that it is a) newer than your car and b) that it has all the smog equipment it came with. E.g. if it is a 95 engine, it will have to have all 95 smog equipment like cats, an air pump if so equipped and even any smog related control lights installed in the dash like the check engine light! While this is not a huge hurdle, making the referee is only going to be safe if you do not modify the smog equipment on the engine and if your OBD system works with no entries.

Routing of exhaust can be tricky, since you will have to make a late exhaust fit an earlier car. If you pass the referee, he will slap a sticker on your chassis (door jamb or under deck lid) that will say exactly what you have (what engine and what chassis) and that he blessed it. That way, the smog guy on the street corner (to which you will have to go in the future) will know what he has and what he has to check and test for.

The regular smog check:

Say you take a car with a non matching engine to the smog station at the corner, how would they ever know that you are not original???

The smog check consists of three things.

1) Visual Inspection
If you have the guy expect ain air pump and he can't see one, you are in trouble. Same goes for EGR and other components. The smog tech may have books but nowadays he is even better. His smog machine will tell him what needs to be there! Unfortunately, the manner in which the factory made smog changed over the years. For example, a 78 SC made it with an air pump, while an 82 made it with an 02 sensor and different tuning. So, if you'd have a 3.0 from an 82 in your 78, the smog tech would look for the air pump and you'd fail!

2) Functional Inspection
This is computer tests, sometimes EGR function (they hook a vacuum pump up to the EGR valve) etc. They also check timing! Timing at idle changes constantly on the 911 engines. I know of one person on the list that tried to pass a 2.7 for a 3.0 and failed, because the 2.7 runs at much more advance than the late 3.0. If the timing is off, you fail!

3) Tailpipe measurements
This is where you will be safe. But you see, it is only one component of the smog check.

The smog guys have it down to a science. If you go to a new smog test station, the machine connects straight to the DMV. It goes through the test, telling the smog tech every step. My mom could smog test cars and know details like timing ... there is also not much room for cheating."

Maybe you're right. The thing is, like I stated before, I just want to do this right. If I were to sell, it'd probably be alot easier sell with the referee sticker.

I do appreciate the input though-
Craig Backer

jkarolyi · 09-21-2005, 11:06 PM

Sorry if I came off harsh, didn't mean to be argumentative. The elaborate referee process listed above is the proper legal way to do it. However, I'd put money that if you took such a car to a local smog shop with a stock cat installed, you'd pass no sweat. It can't hurt to try that method first.

I've smogged cars about 15 times in the LA area, and they've never done anything more than look for a cat convertor...most of them skip the visual inspection all together.

code7rpd · 09-22-2005, 11:31 AM

The only other problem with the 3.6 motors that may cause suspicion is the dual distributers and 12 plugs/wires.

widebody911 · widebody911's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by code7rpd
The only other problem with the 3.6 motors that may cause suspicion is the dual distributers and 12 plugs/wires.

Yes, they do have reference materials (Mitchell, IIRC). I tried to slide mine through a rinky-dink smog shop, and the Indian guy running the test noticed it didn't have the advance cannister, and was confused as hell as to where to clip up the spark pickup: "I am know knowing why you are having two distributor! No, no, this is not stock!" And kicked me to the ref.

1990 would be a better year to claim: OBD-I and no CEL.