Oil Analysis Results

[kang]

Mostly for your amusement….



I used a lot of fuel system cleaners during this OCI. So much for the rumor that they can get into your oil, although perhaps there is some substance to the rumor that they elevate iron levels. I used either Chevron with Techron or Shell V-Power with whatever they call their additive, so perhaps these cleaners contributed some to the iron. Insolubles are low, so there is no dirt or gunk in the oil. Fuel dilution is also low, and the TBN is high, so the solvent in the cleaners has not depleted the oil additives.

[RickM]

How many miles were on the oil when you submitted a sample?

[kang]

3,891. It's shown as "Oil Use Interval" and "Mi/hr on Oil" on the report.

[brcorp]

How much was the analysis

[kang]

$20 for the basic analsis, plus $10 for the TBN.

[RickM]

Originally posted by kang
3,891. It's shown as "Oil Use Interval" and "Mi/hr on Oil" on the report.

Gotcha. Interesting that they say there's plenty of life left in the oil.
If it were a beater car one could change the filter and top off...see how long it's effective life really is.

[Eric Coffey]

Wow, interesting. Never thought there would be that much calcium in an oil analysis. "Mobil 1 and 911's....they do a body good".

Isn't 0-weight a bit thin for a 911 engine though?

[cali74]

I think 0 is the oil weight spec'd from the factory for the 3.6's (at least 95 993)

I was told this recently and believed it - please tell me if I'm wrong!

[chrisp]

My thoughts exactly tcar. Interested to hear the answer.

[kang]

Originally posted by Eric Coffey
Isn't 0-weight a bit thin for a 911 engine though?

Well, that’s an on-going controversy. The factory says 0W-40 is correct for all air-cooled 911’s in all climates. A number of experts, like Joel Reiser, etc, say 0W-40 is correct unless you live in extreme heat or drive on the track in hot weather, in which case you should use 15W-50. There are a lot of mechanics and “secondary” experts who say 15W-15 is correct for all air-cooled 911’s unless you live in a really cold climate. I based my decision to use 0W-40 on a combination of the factory and the Joel Reiser type experts.

This oil report would tend to lend credence to the theory that 0W-40 is perfectly fine for air cooled 911’s. I live in a warm climate and I did a DE or two and several autocrosses on this oil. There is no evidence that my engine has not been protected just fine.

In my mind, there are a lot of old school mechanics out there who still believe in the “thicker is better” school of thought. This was true for a long time. What they are forgetting is that current oil technology greatly exceeds the technology of the past. The current Mobil 1 0W-40 is some kick ass stuff. I’ve seen some oil analysis reports for Turbo Cayenne’s with 20,000 mile OCI's and the M1 0W-40 protected the engine and held up perfectly fine. Yes, it’s water cooled, but the oil goes through the turbo and gets plenty hot. Also, would you run a 20,000 mile OCI on your 911? Didn’t think so… Nope, the old school “thicker is better” doesn’t seem to be true anymore. The current catch phrase is “thin is in.” Some manufacturers are using 0W-20 oils. This would not have been possible 20 years ago, but with the level of technology in current oils, it is.


Tcar…
I added about 6 ounces or so during the 3,891 oil change interval shown above. It’s shown on the report as “make up oil.” They take the amount of added new clean oil into account when they produce the reports.

[Eric Coffey]

Yeah, I don't see the need for the heavy-weight stuff (15w/) when using M1. I would have thought that a good synth 5 weight would do the trick (I run M1 5w30 in the bimmer). I guess if it doesnt thermally break down, doesn't burn off excessiely, has a decent life cycle, and doesnt leave a puddle on the garage floor, it's all good!

[ValveFloat]

Cool!
I send a sample of oil to Blackstone every time I change oil in my VW.
Its really interesting watching the numbers change as the engine
breaks in, and watching the TBN number. VW recommends 10k
miles between oil changes, but based on the TBN number I am
changing at 7500.

[donstevens]

Originally posted by kang
In my mind, there are a lot of old school mechanics out there who still believe in the “thicker is better” school of thought. This was true for a long time. What they are forgetting is that current oil technology greatly exceeds the technology of the past.

I agree. The "thicker is better" theory is old school thinking that is better suited to conventional oil.

Regarding your comment "Also, would you run a 20,000 mile OCI on your 911? Didn’t think so…"

Why not? Based on this report you probably could with 5000 mile filter changes, a little top up oil to freshen the additive package, and continued oil analysis.

With crude oil at $70 per barrel we really ought to conserve it and extending one's oil drain interval through careful oil analysis monitoring is a smart thing to do.

Your Iron report of 18 PPM may be a little high relaitive to Blackstone's "universal averages" but it is nothing to even raise an eyebrow at. Prticularly since you have been driving the car hard on the track. 18 ppm is greta number considering your usage. CTC Analytical Services (The lab Lubemaster77 references in his handbook) doesn't even flag iron in gas engines until 100 ppm. So forget about it.

Good report and thanks for sharing it with us

Don

[edward993]

Originally posted by cali74
I think 0 is the oil weight spec'd from the factory for the 3.6's (at least 95 993)

I was told this recently and believed it - please tell me if I'm wrong!

Hi Cali,

Yes, this is a highly controversial subject. I would take into consideration, however, that the Porsche recommendation was mainly for the water-cooled engines as that is their primary concern (an argument can be made that they don't even care about our older cars, but I ain't going there). Many owners of the waterpumpers, especially from cooler climes, complained about their engines making noise on startup ...tappet noise during winter months in the cold states with heavier oil. They got enough complaints at the dealerships (car is under warranty, afterall) that they simply changed the recommended viscosity to accomodate the hydraulic lifters for the cold-weather regions; but it's easier to make one blanket recommendation than to specify which weight for which region/temp (which would make altogether too much sense for a savvy owner).

For you in SanDiego, I'd stick with M1 15w/50. I am in SoCal, too, and feel my engine is just too "exposed" putting in such a lightweight oil in my 993 or SC considering our temps (the last few months have been wavering between 90s to 100s). So use your own judgment, of course, but I would not follow the factory recommendations blindly in this case. Again, use your own judgment (and that of some of the pro wrenches/tuners who have been opening 911 cases for years), and make the determination that makes best sense for your climate.

Edward

[KobaltBlau]

thanks kang, I am about to send my sample to blackstone and have terry dyson do the analysis itself. I'll post my results here too.

[kang]

Originally posted by donstevens
Regarding your comment "Also, would you run a 20,000 mile OCI on your 911? Didn’t think so…"

Why not? Based on this report you probably could with 5000 mile filter changes, a little top up oil to freshen the additive package, and continued oil analysis.

With crude oil at $70 per barrel we really ought to conserve it and extending one's oil drain interval through careful oil analysis monitoring is a smart thing to do.

Good report and thanks for sharing it with us

Don

You’re right, you probably could. Like I said, I’ve seen some oil analysis reports on Cayenne’s with 20,000 miles on them. Could and Would are two different things. I could run 20,000 miles, but I won’t.

And the conservation issue is a good point. I wonder how much less oil our country would use if everyone (including me) got those old 3,000 mile OCI’s out of their system and doubled it to 6,000 miles. Or even went more than that…

[donstevens]

Originally posted by kang

And the conservation issue is a good point. I wonder how much less oil our country would use if everyone (including me) got those old 3,000 mile OCI’s out of their system and doubled it to 6,000 miles. Or even went more than that…

It would be HUGE and perfectly safe for 99% of the driver's out there. Far more significant than boycotting certain stations or not buying gas on Sept. 1. Heck, the reduced demand for motor oil might help bring gas prices down to 1.99 per $gallon.
I think the oil companies recommending 3000 mile intervals when they know double or triple those interval are safe if highway robbery.

Don

[jagular911]

Guys,

Having worked for both fuels and lubes companies my entire life, I have a few comments.

If we want to reduce our consumption of crude oil, focus on the real issues-fuel economy. 4 qts of oil every 3000 miles is nothing compared to 15 mpg or less for the SUVs that are purchased at alarmingly high rates. How about we start driving turbo diesels like they do in Europe, where they easliy get over 30mpg. Emissions are still an issue, but improving.

Regarding motor oils-I see a number of misconceptions in these responses. Just because an oil has a low insolubility number doesnt mean its doing a great job. The insolubles could be depositing on the top ring, leading to scuffing, etc.

Engine manufacturers know alot about manufacturing engines, and little about lubrication. What they do know- lower viscosity (lighter oils) provide higher fuel economy. In the US, this is critical. Lower viscosity provides a weaker hydrodynamic barrier to metal to metal contact, especially at higher temperatures. Additionally, oils have had the amount of ZDDP reduced, which is the protection afforded during metal to metal contact. This was due to phosphorous contamination of the catalytic converter. Both of these items sought to harm the protection afforded by the motor oil, not improve it.

Motor oils are formulated with base oils of varying viscosity (thickness). Lighter base oils produce 0W products, while heavier base oils are used in the 5W, 10W, 15W etc grades. Viscosity Improvers are added to make the oil behave like a heavier oil at higher temperatures. Thus, a 0W-50 would use a very light weight base oil, plus lots of viscosity improvers to make it behave like a 50. A 15W-50 would use a heavier base oil, and less viscosity improver. It is much more complicated than what I have explained, but this is one of the fundamentals in motor oil design.

Personal opinion- if you are in an environment where the temp is warm, use a heavier grade oil. What you lose in fuel economy, you gain in engine life. The new base oils of today are better than previous, however the heavier ones are just as good, if not better than the light ones.

Some of the comments above are based on experience, interpretation of knowledge, and opinion. What I do know- you don't see many cars on the side of the road because the engine oil failed. Engines are pretty forgiving, providing you use a reputable oil.

[randywebb]

Exactly. Buy a Prius - or commute by bike or mass transit, or telecommute. Or use biodiesel in your commuter car.

BUT... you reduce env'l damage when you extend the oil drain interval b/c spillage is less, and the need to discard residue from recyling "rejecta" is less.

Plus you save $$.

[Wayne 962]

I personally believe that "thicker is better" - for one main reason. It better prepares you for failures. With today's oils, they all perform very well, whether they are thick or thin, or dino or synthetic.

However, when you have that fan belt accidentally break, and you don't realize it, the engine will heat up very fast. While marginal, if I had to pick, I would want a thicker oil in the engine, over a thinner one, when accidents happen. This is of course, keeping in mind that there isn't much difference between them under normal operating conditions.

Also, I do not recommend synthetic or thin oils in these older cars. Many customers have commented / complained that they had oil leaks form when adding the synthetic oil - leaks that did not go away after switching back to the regular oil. I don't run synthetics in any of my older cars. I do run it in the cars that have had it since they were manufactured (like my BMW 5-Series).

-Wayne