Which is worth more: A garage queen or a track whore?

Dueller · 11-07-2005, 07:39 AM

I know porsche ownership is not normally about pure economics, but we got into a debate about where you would get the greatest resturn on improvement investments....

Hypothetical...Assume you have a nice '87 Carrera "driver." Original paint is becoming a little oxidized on the roof but waxes out pretty good. One or two door dings and the perfunctory rock chips. No history of crash damage or paint work...suspension is sound and everything works (including AC). Front seat slightly torn on driver's bolster and carpets are clean but to make the interior perfect you'd want to replace them. The car has 135K on the clock, but you've just had the top end rebuilt with performance in mind. No oil leaks and the tranny is perfect.

Soooooo....two choices: spend $6-7 K for a perfect repaint, interior refurbishing, etc and have a garage queen or a similar amount building it into a dedicated track car with a complete suspension upgrade ala Elephant, throw in a cage, racing seat etc? And if so, which car would have the greatest resale value? Assuming the race version did not suffer instant depreciation (as in crash), that is....

acapella8 · acapella8's Garage

It's a good question. I'm not qualified to give an answer, but I'm looking forward to hearing from those that are.

tonythetarga · 11-07-2005, 08:03 AM

Hey I'm not qualified either but that never stopped me from giving an opinion.

If you want maximum resale then pounding it on the track won't get that for you. Look at how many race cars or track cars are out there for sale that cost way more to build then what they're are selling for.
If you want value to your personal enjoyment, my opinion there is to track the car and appreciate what it was built to do. My 86 has similar milage and condition but sees the track far more than it does the street and it is worth every nickel I put into it for me.
You have to make your own choice on what you want the car for.

Tom '74 911 · 11-07-2005, 08:04 AM

I'm not qualified in any way whatsoever either! But, my guess is that the track car will be devalued over the garage queen. Speaking from a recent buyer's perspective (mine) I would pay more for a nicely restored more original car than one that was tricked out and was known to be used in a much more demanding environment and is more likely to have been abused.

Of course that said - the car I bought a few months ago, was autocrossed and came w/updated shocks, TT rods, short shift, updated engine etc.... so I didn't practice what I just preached! But after digging in to the car and getting to know it - the good and the bad - I may not take the same approach the next time.

Tom

Dueller · 11-07-2005, 08:13 AM

Very good opinions....and I agree one must decide where their personal satisfaction comes from.

But...there are plenty of late 80's 911's out there with half the mileage in near concours condition for $20K or less. (Something that's always astounded me is how owners can resist not putting more miles on their cars). So unrestored the car is worth 12-14, restored maybe 16-17?

On the other hand, you do see some well prepped, sorted "stock" class race cars on a non-salvage chassis bringing 18-19 or more.

Obviously, in either scenario you would never recoup your investment...

Zeke · 11-07-2005, 08:18 AM

There is a broader market for the "garage queen." In terms of how long it take to find a buyer for each example, I'd not do the track version of the car. Unless you have a buyer waiting.

I'd also look carefully at the bottom line. Many buyers would prefer to see the car before a fresh paint job, which can often times hide more than it fixes. You may get less for the car as it is, or with a proper seat reapir, but your bottom line may be greater.

Let me say one more thing about the paint. I know you say you will spend a few thousand for a real good job and I trust you would see that it was done right. But, I bought a 356 with fresh paint once and I saw all the pics of the various stages of the paint work. Thousands were spent, the receipt was there too. But, six months later a crack appeared in the paint at the rocker. When I investigated with my sander, then grinder, I found bondo right on rust. I was really pissed that I had been taken, especially when I specifically asked the seller about this beforehand and he ASUURED me that all rust had been removed, producing the pics.

An original car is worth more than a painted one if you add the actaul cost of a paint job to what you could get for the car w/o paint. It just doesn't add up. It's like a house with a pool. You never can get as much as the pool cost added to the sales price over the same house next door w/o one.

911teo · 11-07-2005, 08:20 AM

I am afraid but at 135k on the clock it ain't no queen...

So if you do a total repaint, freshen it up (seats, seals, etc) it will probably go down a gentle depreciation curve until it hits the $13-14k level (bottom in my opinion for a good G50 911).

If you want to "upgrade" it with ER stuff, cage, racing seats etc... you have to be careful.
1) You can build a race car (F in PCA I think)... If done properly these cars go for $18-25k.
2) you can make your street car a fun DE/track car, which will be more rewarding to drive than your stock car and less obnoxious than an all out race car. But prepare to see 20%-30% value of the upgrade retained in its value...

Not an expert, not in the market. Good luck with your decision.

89911 · 11-07-2005, 08:21 AM

If your car needs repainted, forget about it being a garage queen. There are still late 80's cars out there with low miles and original paint. If you got the car for a good price, enjoy it. Remember, anything you do on it will have little to do with increasing its value. If you want a track car, strip it out and do it up right. If you want a pristine garage queen, buy one that already is and take car of it to keep the resale value up. I could never really understand why some would choose this option though.

s2per · s2per's Garage

It boils down to what do YOU really want to do with it; car shows and concours with an occasional drive only on sunny days or really drive the he// out it, increase your heart rate, get the adrenalin flowing, sharpen your driving skills and practice late braking/heel and toeing/apexing on entrance ramps everywhere you go--even in the rain?

Now, care to guess which type of car is in my garage?

Dueller · 11-07-2005, 08:25 AM

Very goood point Zeke....

The logical economic model would likely be forget about either extreme, maybe some minor repairs both cosmetically, and reasonable performance upgrades, and just enjoy the thing as is for the next 15 years...l

jrl · 11-07-2005, 08:36 AM

As one looking pretty seriously to buy a 911, more and more I'm coming to appreciate an "honest" car: If it's got 100 kmiles and is 15-20 years old, an original car will have stone chips, somewhat worn trim, etc. If you see that, you can believe it. Just me, but I'd rather buy this and make choices about restoration (or not), even though I'd get a "50% discount" on what the PO paid for the same work.

Going back to the original question, the car you described--cosmetically ok and mechanically very good--sounds like a great, worry-free driver. For me, absence of worry is part of the pleasure of ownership.

Jim Richards · 11-07-2005, 08:39 AM

track whore

Noel · 11-07-2005, 08:48 AM

Or you can be like 89911 and have both. A beautiful fairly low milage track car that can be shined up for the local concours. I love your car Michael.

petrolblue83911 · 11-07-2005, 08:59 AM

If you are going to keep it, do what you want, either way. Long term, the track car will be worth less I think, simply because it's a long shot to find a buyer that would want a track car set up the way you want it set up, everyone has their own ideas, so you're unlikely to find someone who wants exactly what you have created. With 135k miles, the other guys are right, this isn't going to be seen by anyone as a garage queen, so if you put the $ in to clean up the car cosmetically, do it for your self, because you want to, and because you are going to keep the car.

-If you are going to keep it, than drive it!-re-do the interior for your self, if it will make your driving time more enjoyable! My car has the same miles, and I've thought about the same stuff as well, this winter I'm replacing the seats, headliner, seat belts and some seals. for me, a re-freshed interior will make the car that much more fun to have and enjoy, you've got to figure out for your self which way to go, good luck!!

nostatic · nostatic's Garage

garage queens make baby jezus and butzi cry

concours is evil

track way or no way

not that I'm dogmatic or anything...

smstcoach · 11-07-2005, 09:01 AM

I'm assuming you would like to modify your car for track use but are concerned about future resale. If that's the case, I would look for good or used deals on the modifications you described and then convert the car back for future sale. You can then pimp all of those mods here on Pelican and probably get what you paid for them. In the mean time, you can enjoy the car and do what you want with it.

KobaltBlau · 11-07-2005, 09:27 AM

For the best investment ... sell it now.

JeremyD · JeremyD's Garage

1987's make great all around cars - track or show.

For Show

Tom '74 911 · 11-07-2005, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
For the best investment ... sell it now.

I think this really is the most accurate statement yet.
Tom

Jack Olsen · 11-07-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KobaltBlau
For the best investment ... sell it now.

That's the truth. The bottom line is that it's going to continue to depreciate for a while, now, no matter how much you spend on it or how much fun you have at your local race track with it.

In my opinion, life is short, and waxing is less fun than racing. But the risk of damage is higher if you track it. And when the prices eventually do turn around, it'll be worth more if you kept it on a shelf.