Except..........

There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of owners and shops that have lifted by the engine without any serious damage.

Might Porsche have written that in their manual in case of an accident when the car is not lifted safely? Let's not forget that all Owner's Manuals are repleat with Cautions, Warnings, etc. that try to relieve them of liability.

There is theory, and then there is practice............

Enough said.

You can lift at any of the points marked with an X

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133297845.jpg

Place jack stands at the Xs w/ an appropriate pad or under the suspension arms or t-bar tubes

W/ 1 jack don't go to max height w/ a single lift, walk it up by alternating sides.

To lift the back, jack at or just inboard of the stock lift point, place the stand u under the t bar tube near the outer end. Do the same on the other side.

Repeat to the necessary height

Here is the car on 4 stands using a similar procedure
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133298240.jpg

Andras - Like I stated earlier, I believe Wayne says a lift point is the engine in 101 Projects. I think you might be on to something with the liability thing. Now that these cars are approaching 20 plus years, liability is out the window and as you state, others (thousands of them) have used this as a lift point.

IMO do what you want, it's your car....

"The vehicle should never be lifted or jacked up from underneath the engine or transmission housing, or the front or rear axle. This could lead to serious damage."

I think this is the lawyers talking. Porsche doesn't want amateurs to try to lift the car using the motor and subsequently damaging something via incorrect jack placement. By recommending the jack pads, Porsche avoids liability. Lifting the car using the motor is perfectly safe IF DONE CORRECTLY!

you would crush the oil pan on a chevy....i use my motor, with a paperback book as a cushion. i dont want to crunch the numbers, but a reving motor pushing the car around a track is probably putting a bigger load on the mounting points than the weight of the car distributed between the four.

Weltmiester makes a jack pad to address the issues being discussed here. It is about $80.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1133299321.jpg

Hi turbo,

Nice piece by Weltmeister!

If I'm not mistaken, this bolts to the cradle piece that bolts to the engine mounts, and thus is not technically supported by the engine. Note also that this red piece serves a dual function - the ring is for towing, the pad is for lifting.

A wonderful example of "necessity being the mother of invention". I've always admired Weltmeister stuff, though could not always afford their stuff.

Any idea how much this costs?

Well I used this excuse to read a bit more in the owners manual. I really had a good laugh as they also state: Gearshifting - The Porsche transmission with servo-lock synchronization permits rapid and precise shifting of gears." Porsche is not really talking about their 915 are they????

that weltmeister thing bolts to the motor right? and since it is further towards the rear, the back mounts would see more load.

Interestingly when my wife had the new MR2 the owners manual stated that you jacked up the rear of the car by using the bottom of the engine as a jack point.

Hi Kurt,

Right.

And I will wager that those who jack by the bottom of the engine will continue to do so.

And those who don't, won't.

By the way, do you know who "invented" the concept of zero? Which culture?

Mayan Indians

Hi Kurt,

Yes and no.

While I was on a Mayan dig years ago at Tikal, I also was taught that the Mayans "invented" zero, but I now know that they actually used zero as a place holder, not as a mathematical concept.

It was actually the Hindus in India that first propounded the use of zero, and it was the Arabic scholars who further refined it as a mathematical construct and brought it to the rest of the world.

One must have the use of zero to acheieve all higher mathematics, and it was the Arabs who did that.

Too bad it wasn't the Hungarians. Sigh, oh well!!!!

To Bill V:

...can't the front lift point also be along line "F"...at a point where the fender well curves ( this woild be the psngr side)...and the same point opposite on the driver's side ?

It better be OK...that's where I routinely put the forward jack stands !

- Wil

".....I have truly never heard of anyone...."

This observation has never shown to be statistically valid unless one is a Google search engine.

I've weighed in on this before so I won't regurgitate, but if the factory says one thing and another publication says another, and you go ahead and do what you want, then that's your call. But then why not ignore other factory suggestions as well? Sounds like DIY engineering to me, but then again, that's a personal call.

"I think this is the lawyers talking. Porsche doesn't want amateurs to try to lift the car using the motor and subsequently damaging something via incorrect jack placement. By recommending the jack pads, Porsche avoids liability. ...."

I think an engineer's voice is saying this otherwise they'd also say, "Don't support/lift the car under the floor pan, front A/C condenser or the oil tank either" as well as a dozen or more vulnerable locations under the car. Lawyers aren't engineers and they don't create the owners manual.

"Lifting the car using the motor is perfectly safe IF DONE CORRECTLY!"

Safety is not the issue. That's a function of jack stands (and perhaps the stability of your phone book). I'd like to see a factory bulletin or equivalent suggest the bottom of a 911 engine is a valid lift point to raise the vehicle. I'd be more confident of using the crankcase if it were designed as a structural member (which it isn't).

Maybe I regurgitated more than I should have.
Sherwood
http://members.rennlist.org/911pcars

Early in Porsche ownership remember lifting the front by the bar which spans the front end. There was no damage at all.
What I didn't realize at the time was you can easily lift one whole side-
(f & r wheels) with a jack and 'jack pad' in the factory slot.

Here is a re-post of the pic of how to do the front

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1160976575.jpg

Bill, FWIW, before I got my lift, I used about a foot long two by four that I strategically drilled a couple clearance holes in to clear the oil drain plug and another bolt head. This wood "pad" basically supported the whole seam line and also rested up against a perpendicular web.

In my mind, it eliminated any worries of over stressing the engine case due to a highly concentrated load being applied to one small area (not that I was overly concerned about it in the first place). IMO, the engine method (with a well thought out lift pad) is much safer and less prone to causing damage than trying to jack the car seperately from each side with the risk of jack stands tipping or jack cups digging into the underbody due to angular lifting contact.

I have never heard of issues arising from lifting with the engine, but I have heard of damage occuring due to the car shifting off of jacks or stands while lifting side to side. (I have done it both ways and with care anything is possible, however the side to side definitely provides more opportunities for a mishap).

Hell, just buy a scissors lift and be done with it! :D

This is on my list to get, believe me. I'm hoping within a few more months I'll have one on order.

Update from when I started this thread I have to say that I've tried using the engine as a jack point and I like it better. So far.

After talking and searching around here (PP) and talking with some of our local PCA guys, I tried it. What made me try it was as I was lifting one side it started to slide off the other side stand. The other reason I decided to try it was cause I had to pull the trans for a rebuild and thought I'd try using the engine as a jack point. I gotta say I like it better then the side to side method for ease and quickness.

As for jacking the front, I used the front AC condenser crash bar. It worked like a charm and lifted the entire front end with ease.

"AC condenser crash bar" I knew it had a proper name!