Correct MFI for 1969 E?

[spinmd]

Hello All,

I’ve been a member here for a few years but got sidetracked with marriage, a new home and other projects and let my Porsches sit in need of work. I just rejoined PCA, started reading this board, bought both of Wayne's books (still haven't cracked 'em open yet, though), and am regaining my passion for the P cars. I'm hoping this Spring to embark on getting them back into running order as I'm finishing up a new 3-car garage and would like to resurrect my '69 911E coupe and '71T targa. Both have been nicely tucked away for a while. The T is pretty stock but requires a clutch and a fuel line (or fuel pump) sprung a leak when I started it last summer. I can do the clutch no problem but haven't tackled fuel line replacement in the past -- hopefully it's a fuel pump replacement-- easy to do, but those pumps certainly are costly.

I would like to get my E as close to stock as possible. Being young and naive 20 years or so ago, I swapped out the original MFI for Webers while living in Sacramento; probably traded ‘em for something dumb – can’t recall. Then the original engine blew here in the Midwest and I swapped it out with a modified '67 from a shop somewhere in Southern Cal (I believe it’s a ‘67 - haven't looked at the numbers in quite a few years).

I'm now considering purchasing a '69 E longblock without any intake from a fellow board member and I'd like to get an MFI system for it if I decide to purchase the longblock. Well, I made a short question too long, but here it is:

If I ever find a complete MFI (or parts of one), I keep seeing that there are certain numbers that coincide with specific engines/years. I realize the '69 E had a special MFI setup for that year only and I believe mag stacks, but I am hoping someone can help me with the pump number and other numbers I need to ensure it is correct? Any idea on what I should expect to pay for a complete MFI in core condition would also be nice. I figure I’m also looking at about $2K to get the pump and throttle bodies rebuilt, but I’ll tackle that issue when it arises. I think I’ll begin to live on ebay.

Thanks a bunch! Either post here, PM me, or send a direct e-mail to ron@mchsi.com.

Ron

[Grady Clay]

Ron,

Welcome to the Forum. You found the exact right place. You get to join the group restoring MFI – a very worthwhile endeavor.

A ’69 is unique in several respects. The most obvious it is the first: LWB, MFI and more. The wiring is also unique. The MFI pump for a ’69 911E is Bosch 0408 126 006. Engine numbers are in the form 629xxxx for the Type 901/09. The range of engine numbers is 6290001 to 6292270. You probably have transmission 901/13 with S/N 719xxxx. With some effort you probably can find a correct engine type.

As you light into this, you should first step back and seriously evaluate your cars. This is an expensive endeavor and you want to restore worthwhile 911s and not just throw money at a vehicle that is too damaged (rust, collision) to be successfully restored.

A place to start is to make yourself two, car-specific manuals. They should contain all the history you have, the relevant parts and workshop manual pages, CMA for the E, and the on-line research you have available.


I think you have some of the best examples of 911s. With a lot of enjoyable effort, they will live forever.

Best,
Grady

[spinmd]

Grady,

Thanks a bunch! Do the throttle bodies or stacks have any specific numbers that I need for authenticity.

I've had the E since 1983 and got the T targa about seven years ago. I haven't done any research on the targa as it was a radio contest win which allowed me to sell my rather scrappy 69 T/S coupe in need of serious restoration -- but that's a whole 'nother story that I'll refrain from posting publicly.

The E is already down to the shell and only rust is under the sill plates at the rear door jambs. I stripped and reassembled the E in '84 but the years of driving it all over California and the midwest have made it ready for another restore -- this time I plan to do it right. Problem is, I disassembled it many years ago and kinda' forgot where everything goes. I had already purchased many new E parts (dash, guages, trim, carpet, etc.) direct from Europe but they, too, have been sitting in boxes for years. I'm going to pick up a factory Porsche 911E Parts Manual to make it easier and plan to pick up the CD here from Pelican.

I have no idea whether the T #s match and what overall shape, bodywise, it's in -- paint can hide a lot as we all know. Heck, I haven't even checked to see if the VIN was correct for the model year or took a look at the engine/trans numbers -- but everything looks correct. It's been in the garage for some time now and when I got it, all I did was drive it until things started acting up. When you have a bunch of radio station DJs, their crew and their girlfriends driving it all summer long promoting the giveaway, it took a serious beating; especially in the clutch and gearbox department. But for the price of state tax, I can't complain.

I do appreciate the info and am figuring on spending some serious $$ if I decide to make a go at it. I figure if I purchase a longblock and get an MFI set up at a fair price and decide to scrap the E project, I can always sell them. Do you have any thoughts on what an MFI setup should cost?

Thanks again for the response.

Ron

[304065]

Ron,

Having your MFI question answered by Grady is like having your violin question answered by Stradivarius. I'll offer what I can.

Over the last few years, as prices for the early "S" cars have shot through the ionosphere, the value of highly original "E" and even "T" cars has followed. While it's not quite true for the "E" that a basket case will make economic sense to restore (as is often the case with "S" cars that have a lot of original equipment/goodies) the value, for now anyway, makes it worth preserving in original state.

If you no longer have the original engine case for the '69 E, it will diminish the originality, and therefore the value, to restore the car with a non-matching engine. Now, it sounds to me like you plan to actually DRIVE this car, so that's probably not a prime concern, and it doesn't sound like you're looking for an immediate return on investment, so I say go for it.

Now, a 2,0 E is good for about 140 HP due to the displacement and design of the heads and ports. Why not consider a displacement bump to 2,2 using a 66mm crank and heads from a 2,2, or even better, a magnesium cased 2,7 built to RS specifications? A set of Mahle RS-spec pistons and cylinders is a great value, which could be made to run well on pump gasoline, while retaining the MFI look. The look could be made nearly indistinguishable from the original engine while offering significantly greater power and torque. With the exception of external oil cooling and a channel in the cooling shroud, it would appear the same as the "1R" magnesium case of the original engine.

Originality is best. . . as I said eleswhere about the '66, people who buy them don't do it because of the wide tires and huge horsepower, they do it for a time warp back to the golden era of Sports Cars. But it seems to me that you have an excellent opportunity to build in a great deal of fun "while you are in there."

By the way, a clue to the 2,0 liter MFI pumps is that they have a second solenoid on the aft end of the pump for starting enrichment. Do a search here for a publication called "CMA" or Check Measure Adjust for detailed information.

[reed930]

There is an MFI system off of a '69S for sale over on the classifieds. I don't know if that system would work on an E or what modifications would have to be made, but it may be a starting place.

[POKDUB]

I was assisted by Grady on this before, researching MFI and engine comninations.

[304065]

Peter,

As you probably know the MFI pump uses a three-dimensional "space cam" to meter the fuel. The two inputs are throttle position and engine speed, and the output is through a pin that rides on the cam surface itself, which in turn moves the rack that controls how much fuel is admitted to the pump's cylinders.

It's critical to match the amount of fuel being delivered to the amount of air being delivered. Obviously, the cam's intake timing and port sizes determine that. But here's the rub: the "S" pump's internal cam is set to deliver a greater amount of fuel, over a different curve, than the "E" internal cam. One would typically use an "E" MFI pump with an "E" engine to have the best possible chance of getting it in tune.

Given the value of "S" pumps (and all things S-associated) today it might be better to sell the "S" pump and buy an "E" to match rather than fight getting the two to match.

[glenncal1]

Peter, Call:

Pacific Fuel Injection (Gus Pfister)

Suite B, 153 Utah Av
South San Francisco, CA

Tel. 650-588 8880

This is the guy Bruce Anderson refers people to for MFI service. He should be able to help you source the parts and could change an S pump to an E pump.

[POKDUB]

John,

Had a general idea that the S MFI would result in tuning difficulties. I might consider your good advise on a swap out, right now I dont have the bandwidth to start the and complete the exercise.

A little bit off the subject manner, but I think Ron is picking up the good advise coming out here.

Rgds
Peter

[spinmd]

Thanks everyone for the insight and assist. Since I've already got a pretty fast engine for the car, I'm going to attempt to get it back to looking like an original E. I'm sure I'll need to have Gus and the other experts rebuild any MFI setup I find, so it's definitely not going to be an inexpensive endeavor.

Even though I'll never get the original E motor back -- valve went through a piston and rattled around for some time and I have no clue to the engine's whereabouts -- I like the idea of getting it as close to stock as possible. Since I'm not looking for heavy HP, 140 horses will do just fine. If I find an engine that needs to be opened up, perhaps I'll have a few mods done to increase the HP then.

Thanks again everyone for your input.

Ron