What would be the order of 930 engine mods you would do?
 

I would like to have reliable 400 RWHP ultimately. Can this be done progressively without wasting time and money? I want to still drive my car during the transition but slowly add/mod things over time if possible.

1) GHL Header & muffler
2) K27 7200 turbo
3) Kokeln intercooler
4) Fuel system upgrade (e.g. Andial Fuel Enrichment)
5) 1.0 bar spring
6) Upgrade K27
7) Replacement boost guage (remove clock)

What year is the 930? How many miles are on it?

The very first mods would be to make sure your fuel and oil cooling system are up to par before you start tweaking things. You don't want to be running lean, or have high oil temps, from the beginning.

I'm looking at the same thing. I have a totally stock '87 930. The first thing I'm planning on doing is the suspension. New shocks and bushings all around, lower to 25.5 rear and 25 front (is that too low?). Then align and corner balance the whole mess. Hopefully, I get that all done by spring. :rolleyes:

Next winter my plans are to upgrade to K27 and larger intercooler and the 1 bar boost spring. Then an exhaust.

There are people here that know a lot more than me about this and I'm sure they'll chime in.....

It is a 79 930 motor with 19K on a total rebuild. It is going into an early tub with the 4 speed trans. Basically everything will be transplanted from the 79 930.

Is item 2 and 6 redundant? If not what is the upgrade?

The K27 7200 was described to me as a very good turbo but not the best. With it Blkbird had 389 rwHP. Recently the turbo went to Florida for a specialty tweaking - change one of the housings, the blades, etc. Don't ask me for the exact details.

But now Blkbird hits 422 rwHP and is at full boost by 3800 rpm. So whatever magic was performed it worked out well.

The order that I would add mods while using the car:
1) Exhaust System
2) Turbo
3) Intercooler
4) 1.0 Bar
5) Fuel Enrichment if needed (dyno to map A/F ratio to redline)
6) Go into the motor for cams and headwork if you still want more power.

My car has or is getting the following during my total rebuild:
-B&B headers
-B&B intercooler
-3.4L Ps&Cs
-Twin plug heads
-Electromotive XDi twin plug ignition system
-Tial waste gate with .8 spring
-K27-7200 turbo
-ARP head studs
-ARP rod bolts
-SC cams
-Modified fuel head
-Zork tube "muffler"

I have no idea what kind of HP this will give me, I'm just doing alot of it "while I'm in there"...OF COURSE!!!!!!

There are many "variants" of the K27...K27s, K27HF, K27HFS, K27HF2, etc. The basic K27-7200 is what was used on the 965. The 930 used a 3LDZ. The basic K27 is deffinately an upgrade over the 3LDZ!

I agree 101% with RarlyL8

Yasin

sell the 930 Engine , add another 5-6 K and get a 965 Turbo 3.6 , take the cat out , 1 bar Spring , and cams and you are at about 400 +very reliable HP . Before you reach real 400 HP with a 79 930 Engine you have at least the same Money spend , the car is barely driveable on the Street and you waste a lot of Time and nervs .
Harald

Barely driveable? Are you nuts or have you never driven a 400HP 930?
These engines are more mild mannered than a normaly aspirated engine. Mine is downright docile until I kick it. At 400HP you can still use the stock CIS (if you wish).

first off get the valves adjusted and complete a full service/inspection. Start combing the net for deals on used performance parts and be ready to buy,Ebay is great for that. GHL? no thanks.Mid America has B&B systems for $1150.00,way cheaper then GHL and better IMHO(l`ve had both).Get the B&B`s made with a Garrett flange and $700.oo should get you a great Garrett turbo.Juan Ruiz can give you the good specs or l`ll give you mine if you like,basically a stage two Promotive spec unit.A custom full bay intercooler from "goingsuperfast" will cost you about $500.00.Do the CIS mods to keep the fuel ratios in line and make sure you`ve got the MSD or another ignition upgrade$250.00.l`d get a wideband system(PLX 250 with dash guage,$300.00)The stock wastegate is okay if it`s in good condish,if not search for a used 46mm Tial.For the muffler l`d go with the super trick "Aero " stainless topedo typeor a simple flowmaster.Shop it good and for less then $3000.00 you`ll have a monster.The next stage would require you to get rid of the CIS injection but cross that line when you need to,if you ever do.The parts that you`ll be replacing can be sold very easily to finance the mods,don`t worry.l sold my B&B headers and Autothority mass flow system to finance my own turbo conversion and it all worked like l planned it that way.PM me for any details on specific parts,l researched for a couple of years before l did my conversion and l`m pretty familiar with the process.l had a lot of time to plan as l first upgraded my suspension and brakes.good luck

I second this.

Also, for 500+ it's definately more economical to sell 3.3 all together and go the 3.6 route (preferrably by turbo-converting N/A engine to gain twin plugs, whick 3.6T doesn't have).

Goran, only challenge with this is lots of fabrication needed :)

scca_ita: how are you going to use the car? That will affect what engine internals you want/need. Without engine (e.g. cam) mods, I'm not sure if you'd get to 400rwhp... of course, each dyno is different ;)

I have driven 930s when you were running around the Christmas Tree in Shorts .
Have you ever driven a 3.6 Turbo 965 or a 993 TT , i guess not or you would know what i am talking about .

By Street Driveable i mean a Car would is driving smooth below 2000 RPM and has some power down there too . A car you can go from a dead Stop WITHOUT slipping the Clutch to death .
Back in the 80s there was nothing else and we had to live with that ,
I remeber very good how it was to drive trough the City
with a Car bucking like a Horse and flames out the exhaust that the Cop ask me if i want to Burn his Bumper ( i answered that i would like too ,man did i pay for that Joke )
By driving on the Street i am talking about the roads in Town wher you go 30 and have Stops and Traffic lights not inner City Highways ,there it shouldnt be a Problem .
Basic Line ,if you do that to a 930 Engine be sure you can keep it over 2500 RPM to enjoy , below it is a Pain .
Happy Holidays : Harald

Actually, you would be forced to do at least as much fabrication on 3.3 to extract more than roughly 400hp. After 450hp, it's often not economically feasible to tweak CIS 3.3 and it's only engine core (crank, pistons, case and maybe heads) that can be reused.

I agree 100% with Rarely! My '87 is a daily driver...and hardly any of that daily drive is on an interstate! There's NO bucking. The car is very smooth. What I love most is it's split personality - docile, almost N/A like at lower RPMs and hairy chested when your foot is in it...not so much that the car is uncontrollable. Many have this perception that these cars have an agenda to take flight into the nearest oak tree as soon as one steps on the throttle - NOT SO!

If using the 4 speed, dont forget the close ratio trans/ring & pinion.

This will be a Street/AutoX/TT car. Has full cage and will weigh about ~ 2100lbs (hopefully).

Some recent PICs of Progress

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1135186084.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1135186105.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1135186126.jpg

This guy wants to progressively get to About 400HP while using the car.
Anything more than the easy mods suggested is a waste of money for the application.

A street 930 CIS 400HP car is easier to drive than any normally aspirated hotrod. Period. If you can't tolerate turbo lag then you have no business driving one.
ANY mod you do to a stock 930 engine will make it more "street freindly".

An no, you weren't driving 930s when I was in diapers. The 911 hadn't even been invented yet.

Thank you all for the input. I have a lot of work to do still and look forward to learning more once the motor goes in.......

Happy Holiday!

@ rarlyL8
I didnt wanted to be rude , this is my second language ( i am from Germany ) and sometimes i am missing the right words .
I had a lot of 930s in the 80s , some from the best Tuners around , Ruf , Kremer , etc. I have to admit they were fun Cars and very fast , back then .
But have you driven a later 965 3.6 or yet a 993 TT , they are truly different worlds and drive like NA cars with a moderate Fuel consumption and Power that makes you breathless .
If i had the choice to mod a 3.3 or sell it and spend 6-8 K more i would go 3.6 or spend 10 more and go 993 TT .
Happy Holidays : harald

As far as I remember, Speedster94 is actually Harald. When I was a newbie on PP, Harald was already very respected member of the board with imense knowledge of 911 engines.

His german-tainted english sounds poetic from time to time, but I learned never to question quality of information coming from him.

Good to have you back Harald! SmileWavy

Well if the premise is easy gradual mods to get to 400 rwHP then I stand by my original suggestion. I get 400+ when I'm into full boost but find the car pleasant to drive slow when I don't feel the need.

'course with 400+ on tap I feel the need pretty often. But I still wouldn't do an engine swap if I was looking for easy and gradual.

you are talking about 400 HP at the wheels from a 3.3 Turbo at 1 bar ?
that would be 450 at the Engine , you must be kidding .
harald

Yep. 422 rwHP SAE. 396 rwHP uncorrected in Atlanta numbers. Something like 466 ft-lbs SAE torque.

It's a wicked toy with the top down.

Well, drivability is relative. Based upon what scca_ita shows (pictures) I suspect he's not looking for something quicker than a 350z Turbo from light to light AND something that can keep up with GT-2 on the track at the same time. I could be wrong...

Goran, I think there's quite a more work to fit a 3.6 into our chassis ? What about tranmission? axle? These are all in addition to other "standard" fab that might need whether its 3.3 or 3.6?

Of course, its hard to argue about better suspension on the 964 cars; though that is one of the 930 charms on track, no? ;)

Some of you guys are getting way too old.... The lag is half of the FUN of driving the 930!

If money is no object you can do anything.
The original post asked for gradual upgrades to achieve 400HP from a 3.3L 930 engine. He did not ask for a $50,000 ImagineAuto EFI special.
I guess we need to quote a budget as well.

And yes I've experienced modern turbos. They're booring, like an extremely fast Lexus.

Well that is a good question. I would say for the sake of discussion less than $10K not including initial engine purchase.

I will also turn my own wrenches too. ;)

OK so I have a '87-930 with 26k miles --basic stock...and now I have the same bug everyone else has been talking about... Please give me the sanity check.. I was thinking about the following... and in this order..

-Better suspension set up( this I need to do more research on)

-B&B headers,exhaust and heat exchangers ( need the heat in MD)

-K27 model 7006 ( maybe Kokeln... any concerns)

-Kokeln intercooler

-Tial 46mm wastegate

- 1 bar spring

- HKS boost controller model EVC

The real issue is how to get this as a package.. Imagine Auto has their stage 2 package ( $5K -No Tial) which I used to model what I thought would be appropriate. Looks to be a decent package but they dont spec B&Bs for their headers...However I like some other products I have seen and if I buy them from the other sources my costs get significantly higher..

Does IA offer to substitue various items.. anybody ever done this with them?

What CIS mod is really required for this application...How would you map something that is in so basic and mechanical and pre-set or am I missing something...

I have an 88 930 (4speed) and was asking the guys over at Smart Racing/Jerry Woods Enterprises about getting 400hp out of it.

One of their suggstions, which made alot of sense to me, was not to touch the engine and regear it - that is, unless I wanted flames from the exhaust and hot and cold start issues.

Craig Backer

What is the diference between the 930, 965 Motors? I know the the 993TT motor is a twin turbo 3.6......I have seen people refer to the 965 as a 3.3 and 3.6?

The 91 and 92 964 turbo aka 965 has the same engine as the 930, the upgrades on the 965 included coilover suspension, K27-7200 and I believe larger intercooler the 3.6 was only available in 1994.

If your budget is <$10k, I think BldBrd and RarlyL8's list is about as good as it gets. I'm rebuilding my engine from ground up at the moment. I don't even need turbo, CAMs, WG, accurate gauge and exhaust and I'm still looking at close to $10k for parts alone.

And don't forget to leave some budget for suspension :)

What CIS mod is really required for this application...How would you map something that is in so basic and mechanical and pre-set or am I missing something...

CIS can support up to 400HP, you don't have to do anything to it.
If you wish to go beyond that point ImagineAuto will mod your fuel head.

Because these systems can be 30 years old it is a wise idea (in my opinion) to monitor the A/F ratio with the proper gauge and/or have a dyno run performed that maps the ratio for you. I would venture to say that most WURs that old are not working optimally. An adjustment screw on the WUR is also a good cheap mod.

sorry to revive an old thread but... RarlyL8 can you provide any other insight on the adjustment screw for the WUR?