WTF is wrong with MODS?
 

When I bought my car it was completety stock... low miles, ya da ya da, ya da.
I made it lighter, faster, handle better, ride smooth as glass, sound unbelievable, ergonimicaly perfect driving comfort, all while keeping the car pristine.
Now I need to sell it. No such luck. I'd have better luck getting screwed with a wart on my ding ding.

Everyone, friends, that see the car says WOW.... but no buyers have come forward to even look at it.
I also think my price of $21000 is dirt cheap, am I wrong?

You may just have to wait for the right buyer who want's the modifications.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/247485-rufed-porsche-pics.html

For those that dont know my car.

Many buyers are concerned with "all stock", when in fact cars with the right mods are much better driving cars. The same stigma is attached to cars that have been tracked. That's a sweet car, it will sell.

I agree with John. I think it just will take the right buyer with the cash. From what I have seen of your car it is worth the money. What about the local ecomony? Are people making other non-essential purchases?
I know that here in Flint, people are NOT buying anything they don't need because of the Delphi/GM situation. I have seen a dramatic drop in sales of vending items because they have started packing a lunch. Not what you want to hear but I think it may be playing a part in your case.

I am not a Targa fan, but that is a nice car. You obviously spent a lot of time, money, effort and attention to detail. The right knowlegible buyer will fall in love with the car. Probably not a good time to sell at the moment the holiday bills have to be paid.
By the way you can get an ointment for your ding dong.
Good Luck.

I can tell you the local NY NJ CT economy is very strong. Low unemployment, high wages, housing is not cheap, but ..... overall very good.
I had set myself a ceiling to spend on cars a few years ago, nothing more than $30k. I have 4 cars, all used, 2 mercedes S600 300 SE, jeep and the 911.
I consider a 20k car cheap in my book.
To build up the 911 again it would cost $33,000 parts alone.
I really thought at $21,000 it would sell in the first day.
I am beginning to consider pulling it apart and going back to a stock look, jacking the price to $22-23k, and I'd bet it would sell.

The basic problem is this...so you needn't take this a personal snub from prospective buyers....

...a used stock car is a "known quantity". The buyer knows the car is only degraded by condition and use as it came from the factory. "Mods" ... OTOH .....can either be bad or good , depending upon the knowledge and expertise of the person doing the conversions. This throws a whole new arena of "unknowns" into the buyer's fear mix...and is the cause for possible dis-interest by buyers. You're now going to fish for the smaller cadre of really knowledgeable folks who wouldn't mind mods themselves...and who "understand" what was done ( and how WELL it was executed). Quite naturally...your target group of potential buyers has grown much, much, smaller.

Wil

Successful selling is all about identifying a need/desire/want on the part of the buyer(s) and providing that n/d/w cheaper then the best alternatives. It's all about the buyer.

Modifying a 911 is all about self gratification and making it just the way that you want it, so that it will be your dream car.

The two do not have much -- if any -- overlap. If you want to make money (or even just lose less money) modding and selling Porsches, you need to remove your own wants/needs/desires from the specifications of the car and replace them with the w/n/d's of the person whose money you want.

Unfortunately buyer behaviour for 911's is no different then for any other thing. Most of us are here because we are trying to satisfy our own w/n/d's with our 911's -- and try to ignore the inevitable results when we need to move on and sell our cars.

Ken The main problem you have is the time of year. My family has been in the car business for over 60 years and this is the slow time of year for "summer" cars. Yours is definatly a summer car. I know some people on this board run them year round but 99% of these cars are run only when its nice At least in the midwest. I know what your situation is and feel for you but probably will have much better luck come spring when the grass springs back up etc. Anyhow Good luck and to answer your question yes that is dirt cheap for your car

Ken-Targa in January, holiday season, all are slow factors.

Your car is very nice, no doubt. However, the mods do narrow the market to those that understand them-someone just getting into Pcars is unlikely to see the value in them, someone in for a long time understands that he's paying pennies on the dollar for what was done.

I understand its a pressure situation. Relax, it'll happen.

Having recently moved from the NY/NJ/CT tristate area, my experience is that it can be difficult to find people thinking about buying sports cars in the winter.

I've been on this board as long as most and one theme I encounter when modifying a car is "save all the old parts". If I was buying a modified car I would want all of the old parts.
I was looking for a Targa a few years back and noticed that there are an awful lot of red Targas. So that might figure into the equation.
Question: Would horsepower mods make the car easier to sell than cosmetic mods?
Oh and don't lose any sleep trying to figure out a 911 owner/buyer. My wife gave up years ago.

You could offer to pay delivery within the continental US. Some people just have no interest or idea about how to get a car across the country so wouldn't even consider it.

Targa's generally bring less cash than coupes, and modified cars rarely bring more than stock low miles cars.

21K is pretty pricey for an '87 targa. For that sort of money it will either take just the right buyer, in which case you may have to wait a year for that guy to find you or it would have to be an all original '87 w/10k miles or something.

The only thing that will really add much to the cost would be the wheels. How many miles are on the car?

Seems to me that the cost for the late 3.2L cars is currently running 15-20, and 20-23 for really exceptional cars.

A couple of observations from the peanut gallery (so take them at face value):

1. You are trying to sell a Porsche in the Northeast during the winter.

2. Targas typically don't pull the same demand as similar coupes.

3. Performance modifications are one thing, but with the "ruf-style" rear and front, you have significantly altered the appearance of the car to the point that most people who want a 911 may not like it. This isn't to say that it is a bad looking car, however you are likely going to have to wait for the right buyer as most people have mentioned.

Most cars that end up customized to that extent are done so to specific personal tastes and preferences and as such end up being long term keepers for one reason or another.

I think swapping the deck lid and front bumper with stock alone would make it a fast sell. The Fikses look killer on 911s. I have the same ones on my 930.

It is what I consider very low miles 54,000. Not quite 10k, but not 200k either. I really hate selling this car.

Very nice car. I don't think the mods are the issue. Not sure of the mileage, but I think it is a 17k-18k car, unfortunately regardless of what you have in it. I don't think it will sell any quicker if you go back to stock, but you would probably get the same price and could then sell the expensive wheels, etc and recover some additional money that way. I have sold 2 Porsches and several other performance cars over the years, and can tell you with specialty cars you don't get many calls, but the ones you get are generally interested parties. When I sold a nice 951 many years ago in a month I think I only got 2 calls (yes it is discouraging), and the second one bought it. Also remember that buyers that need financing may be knocked out as most lenders don't want to loan on 15-20 year old cars.

Ken-I know this is heresy on this board, but you might try ebay (I would wait till after the holidays to list). I have sold a few cars there, gets you nationwide exposure. You need to create a solid listing with good photos and a very good description of car. Don't be disappointed if the car doesn't hit your reserve price the first time. Good luck.

This reminds of pbs911's black targa. It had RUF bumpers, Fikse wheels, and a 3.6. He was asking in the low 20s, if I remember correctly. einreb bought the car (off eBay maybe) and yanked the 3.6 for use in another 911.

If you are truly serious about selling, investigate the sales price of pbs's ride, and you'll get some indications of what your car is worth - penalty for time of year.
regards, jurgen

I had my '88 up for sale on several different sites (not ebay) and in the paper and auto trader for about 3 months. I got some calls and a couple of people that looked at the car. I continued to get calls for 3 months after selling it despite removing all listings. Mine wasn't as nice as yours. I ended up dropping the price to speed up the sell and sold it to a dealer.

I think that you can get 21K for it, but I think you'll have to wait. It may take 6 months or more.

I agree in philosophy, but no one has offered even that.

And if it doesn't? Patience is king. You say you *need* to sell it. When I need to sell something, or don't want to dick around with tire kickers, I price it at wholesale and walk away.

Many cars take 2-3 mos., even longer to attract the right buyer. Flippers know this and are prepared to hold while marketing the item. You need to decide which situation you are in.

As far as actual examples go, I sold my 914 non streetable race car, engine seized, for .30 on the dollar. It was gone in hours to a flipper. He made it barely street legal, installed a six (good move), yet it took him a year to sell it. Two listings on eBay as the final act did the job. Not counting a lot of labor, he made out. But, I'll wager he's done better deals.

My conclusion is that the more mods, the more difficult the sell and that all extras (mods) get thrown in for free. Lastly, I'll give you the example of my present car: '71 911S; tired, but on it's way back; no longer has its sport seats and is far from the original color. Nothing that has been done is irreversible, it will all unbolt. Not painted yet, but ready. Your guess? I had it informally *appraised* at maybe 12-15K. This, while very nice original '71 S's go for 20's and 30's. Pristine time warps can reach the 50's.

Early cars don't directly compare with yours, but you get my point, I hope.

Ken,

I am a Northeast buyer and have viewed this car here on line and followed it on ebay as well. I really like the car and the mods however there are a few things that keep me from driving to NY to see it. None have anything to do with the mods except that it again impacts your selling price to recoup some of the cost.

I'm sure I am like others in the market that are looking for a specific model, and anything out of the scope will have to be less money.

I am looking at 3.2 coupes in the $14-$18K range and also 964’s around $20K. I can take either one; it just has to be the right combination of price, options, color, distance and check out mechanically.

I have the dollar range to be picky and If the right slightly modded and upgraded 964 came along for $22 I could jump as I would on a perfect '86 coupe with a fresh top end and rebuilt 915 for $15K.

For me it comes down to:

-Model: I'm looking for a coupe. I could pick up a targa only if priced right.

-Color: I just can't do red. If this was any other color, I would consider it even as a targa. Again, it would have to be a deal for a red Targa for me to jump.

-Price: too high for Targa. For $20K+ I would pick up a 964. I or a G-50 M491 option coupe, etc.

So if this was silver and priced at $17-18K, I would be all over it, even as a Targa. I think a coupe would fetch you your money in a week I believe.

Just my 2 cents.

One rule of thumb regarding cars is that mods do not increase the value of the car. Taking a stock car and dumping $10k worth of mods into it isn't going to increase the value.

This MUST be considered if you are ever going to have to sell the car.

Re: WTF is wrong with MODS?
 

Theres your answer.

Please don't take this wrong, but you've got to wait for the 'right buyer' to come along. As others have mentioned, you've severely limited your potential pool of buyers. It's a very personal thing when making a purchase (yours would have been excluded from my list right off the bat due to many reasons: red, targa, wheels, unknowns, etc.). I'm not at all knocking your car, as it is VERY nice...IF that's what you're looking for...be patient.

:)

Very nice Targa.

But....there are more people with money in hand who are less afraid of a bone stock P car than any one that is modded.

Just a fact of life.

Be patient, someone will come along that wants exactly what you have to sell.

Did I mention thats a very nice Targa.

Len

:)

Nice car,, clearly you're selling a targa ( i.e. convertible) in the dead of winter.. This is not rocket science, you'll have them lined up come April..
Nice car!!!

I was on this boat when I was shopping for a Porsche. Found a cherry '88 ...Banks said no way and lost the deal by an hour....I had to rob my personal piggy bank to get my '85:(

Well put, couldn't have said it better myself.

The car will sell if you meet the market or the market comes to you (ah time). Living in Australia I can't beleive how cheap the 911's are over stateside you lucky guy's and gal's

There are a few key ”problems” with mods.

• They are limited in taste-appeal. What you like, someone else will hate.
• The buyer fears they may have been done using poor quality products, and materials.
• The buyer fears they may have been executed poorly.
• The buyer fears they may have been done to mask an issue, like major accident damage.

I'll be bolder. Moding a car usually REDUCES the value of the car. And no, I'm not saying you shouldn't mod your car. I'm just saying you need to realize it has an impact on the cars worth.

As usual there is a hand full of exceptions to this rule. But in these cases you will get much less than 50% of the money you spent.

1 )Adding model appropriate factory parts. For example adding a Carrera tail on a Carrera. (Adding a turbo or duck-tail on a Carrera does not count.)
2) Adding phenomenally-easy-to-remove aftermarket parts, and you still have the factory parts that are in good working condition. Examples would be wheels, and with a bit of a stretch, radios.

Well said jluetjen !!

So you need to sell your Ruf accessorized Targa to pay off legal woes, but you can somehow swing a Boxster? Sounds flaky to me....good luck with your pursuits....

NF

Apparently there are many on this forum who own a Porsche mainly for its investment value. It might have been better for the car to depreciate like other cars, then they can modify it to their liking without worrying about satisfying the next owner or preserving the mystic.

How about fixing up your car in a manner that provides the most enjoyment for YOU, otherwise you end up compromising your ownership in it. If you're into originality, that's fine too, but let's not criticize others (too much) for wanting to improve THEIR driving enjoyment.

As to potential buyers, I understand the pitfalls of purchasing something with an abundance of DIY labor involved. How many of us have purchased or rented a house where the previous user/owner had performed a lot of DIY repairs themselves? Very often it's not pretty. If you worry more about the next buyer than getting maximum enjoyment from the car, keep it original or modify it so the return to originality is easily accomplished.

MHO,
Sherwood

Exactly! I'm a big proponent of doing exactly what you want with your car regardless of what anyone else thinks. You just have to be aware that 9 times out of 10 that if you do anything but keep it original (other than stuff like Carrera tensioners, the valve in the SC airbox, etc....) you are reducing your resale unless you have the time and patience to wait for the right buyer who wants your mods and is willing to pay for them.

People buy Porsches, at least their first Porsche, because the car they see resonates with some vision of a 911 that they've carried with them, probably from childhood. For most people, that vision is a stock car. The stock car lets them imagine that they have been transported back in time to pick up the car they wanted. A modded car may have many practical and performance advantages over stock, but it just isn't what a lot of buyers have "in mind".

I sold this '87 coupe (50K miles, totally stock but with a partial repaint/accident repair) for $23000 through autotrader. The person who bought it was about 50 and he'd wanted a Porsche for 20 years.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1136035136.jpg

I then bought this heavily modified '88 coupe with 40K miles (Fikses, Recaros, big red brakes, Wrightwood swaybars, big t-bars, strut bar, cat bypass) for $24K (owner asking $27K).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1136035188.jpg

I sold all the go-fast bits for about $7K, and spent $2K to return the car to mostly stock shape, giving me what I wanted, which was a stock low-miles non-sunroof coupe for $19K.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1136035223.jpg

I would suggest that ken_xman's best bet would be to return the car to stock, sell it for $19K or $20K, then sell off the pieces. The wheels, tires, and body pieces by themselves should bring in $4K to $5K, and selling a 50K mile G50 Targa in great shape for $20K should be a snap.

Yeah you are probably right > Ken if you decide to go that route put me in line for the fiskes I have some fuchs that can go back on there for you. I do feel for your situation it is a hard one. I personally know that my car is not worth allot to a first time buyer as it is a 77 body with a 79 tranny an a81 engine. with an efi conversion. It is rust free and has a great repaint with perfect interior. I would say It would probably only sell in the 10k range because it is not original but really it is probably worth high teens because it is such a nice well sorted car. P-cars of this vintage are a crap shoot hard to tell what you will get out of them. For example I had a beutiful 914-6 (conversion that I did) with all the oem 914-6 parts. Sold it for 12 and the current market for originals was 10 so I did well when I sold it. Anyhow Good luck and best wishes

I concur with this line of thinking. If it were me though I would have kept the mods on the white car. But that is simply my taste.

Like I said on the other thread, I like your car Ken. Plus, I personally think your mods are desirable. OTOH, I am not in the market for an 87 Targa so even if it were $15,000 I'd have to think long and hard about it. Sadly, even if you do return the car to stcock, you are simply going to have to wait for the right guy to sell it. If you need cash fast, you should probably remove the mods and be prepared to sell it cheap

Best of Luck Ken,

Don

Ken,
Those who most appreciate your car are those who are already owners. Your car is very nice. However, there are fewer of us who are in the market for a second 911.

Those who are new to the marque don't really know the ins and outs of the car and don't realize how well the car can be improved. They play it safe and look only for the unmolested examples and use that as their starting point. I think that's how most Porsche owners start off.

So, if you can, remove all the nice stuff and sell it. Return the car back to stock and let the new buyer start with a relatively clean slate. The new owner may eventually want to do the same mods anyway. This will also keep the parts and accessory guys in business.

Sherwood