Sucro Relay Kit

[HarryD]

Originally posted by rnln
Hi, I am ready to do this and I have a question on relay prongs. Let me label what I see on the relay and someone please correct me.

85 to ground (car chassis)
30 to batery (+) terminal (is 10g wire good enough for high watage bulbs?)
86 will be the turn on signal wire (+), connect to the headlight switch (can re-use the stock wire?)
87 to the headlight unit (+) (is 10g wire good enough?)
Headlight Ground can be connected directly to the chassis, no need to connect to the relay.

Do I get it correct guys?
What is the 87a prong for?

Thanks in advance.

I think you have it right.

I am not sure what the 87a prong is for.

As far as wire sizing (http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_12/3.html for capacity of various wire sizes and types):

10 gauge - 480 watt capacity
12 gauge - 360 watt capacity
14 gauge - 300 watt capacity
16 gauge - 216 watt capacity

For the control wires from the stalk, the existing wires are plenty big.

[RoninLB]

nice thread in that different strokes for different folks. Different but still good enough to do the job.



pelicanhead Bell did a nice simple and easy diagram. I like it also.






My system isn't the safest per say but it was the simplest with only 2 relays. I always carray a spare relay so it's not like the driver is a tourist that can't flip the bad relay in 2min. They were used, and still used, when EMS, FD, PD rigs had christmass trees were all halogen. They are 75amps ea. Overkill as Dan Stern has a more friendly system than mine. [i use a vapor proof circuit breaker on each relay feed] Dan Stern is a home run to have around. He sold me some trick Cibie rally lights that are not listed anywhere... that's another story.

Circuit breaker & one relay is fed with soldered terminal 10AWG wire. One relay feeds 2 low. One relay feeds 2 high. Each hot wire end is bare tested in the high watt bulb socket. The wire end will take a "fit" in the socket as the wire direction is shaped. I removed it and then flooded it with solder. I took a file and fine tuned its shape to the connection flat surface. Each socket ground ran into the trunk and met at the battery chassis ground lug. The relay trigger and ground wires were tye wrapped so then don't fall off. The relay main input and out wire are screwed on.

party hearty

[JeremyD]

Damn Ronin, thank you, that is helpful.

[rnln]

HarryD,, Ronin,
Thanks for response. I have a question. I see that comparing between yours and harryD way of connection, you guys are swaping prong 85 and 86 (turn on signal and ground). Is either way are the same for the relay? Or is it because you guys are doing different in term of (+) or (-) wire?
I guess the question should be is it the (+) or the (-) wire from the headlight switch to the relay for the turn-on-signal?

[ruf-porsche]

ANyone use relays for HID Conversion? Do you need relays for HID Conversion?

[Jadams1]

Here's a diagram I drew up for an 80SC that may help.

[Early_S_Man]

rnln,

The only problem with Bell's [John's is correct] diagram is with the choice of using terminal #86 as ground!

By DIN convention, terminal #86 should be the '+' operating signal, and terminal #85 should ALWAYS be ground. It may not present a problem with the relays in the Sucro kit, but it COULD be a FIRE HAZARD in the future ... if a relay with a noise suppression diode is plugged in to that circuit as labeled! It will work as labeled, as long as a relay without suppression diode is used. When, or IF, a DIN 'icecube' relay with suppression diode is plugged in to that circuit, the diode will be forward-biased, and begin conducting as a short! It might take some time for the fuse to blow, or the relay case could catch on fire!

So, my suggestion is to reverse the relay coil labels!

BTW, terminal #87a, if present, is a normally-closed, or break contact.

[rnln]

Thanks all you guys,

Early_S_Man,
So Ronin is correct, in your definition then. Let me relist it to see if I get everything correct.

I plan to use normal 5 prong relays at any autopart store.

Relay:
86 to ground (car chassis).
30 to batery (+) terminal, with 30A FUSE (10g wire).
85 will be the turn-on-signal wire (+), connect to the headlight switch (can re-use the stock wire?).
87 to the headlight unit (+) (10g wire).
87a no use.
Headlight Ground can be connected directly to the chassis, no need to connect to the relay.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by rnln
Thanks all you guys,

Early_S_Man,
So Ronin is correct, in your definition then. Let me relist it to see if I get everything correct.

I plan to use normal 5 prong relays at any autopart store.

Relay:
86 to ground (car chassis).
30 to batery (+) terminal, with 30A FUSE (10g wire).
85 will be the turn-on-signal wire (+), connect to the headlight switch (can re-use the stock wire?).
87 to the headlight unit (+) (10g wire).
87a no use.
Headlight Ground can be connected directly to the chassis, no need to connect to the relay.

Sounds good but you are oversizing some things and undersizing others.

You can use the exisitng wires to energize the relays, they are plenty big.

For the headlamp power, if you use THHN wire (It is available at most hardware stores and usually is rated for gasoline and oil services), 12 gauge can carry up to 40 amps.This size is much easier to work with and you will be able to find connectors much more readily.

If you are installing 100 watt headlamps, they each will draw no more than 9 amps each (amps = 100 watts / 11 volts). Two 100 watt headlamps will draw a max of 18 amps and add 10% for safety for a total draw of 19.8 amps.

Since your low beams will draw somewhat less, for four head lamps, your total current draw should be less than 40 amps which is also the rating of the 12 gauge wire. In this scenario, 12 gauge should be ok but you will need a 40 amp main fuse if you power all four headlamps with a single fused line or a 20 amp fuse if you power the hi and lo beams separately.

Good luck with your project. It took me less than a day to get my system rewired to my liking with two relays and two circuits.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by RoninLB
nice thread in that different strokes for different folks. Different but still good enough to do the job.



pelicanhead Bell did a nice simple and easy diagram. I like it also.






My system isn't the safest per say but it was the simplest with only 2 relays. I always carray a spare relay so it's not like the driver is a tourist that can't flip the bad relay in 2min. They were used, and still used, when EMS, FD, PD rigs had christmass trees were all halogen. They are 75amps ea. Overkill as Dan Stern has a more friendly system than mine. [i use a vapor proof circuit breaker on each relay feed] Dan Stern is a home run to have around. He sold me some trick Cibie rally lights that are not listed anywhere... that's another story.

Circuit breaker & one relay is fed with soldered terminal 10AWG wire. One relay feeds 2 low. One relay feeds 2 high. Each hot wire end is bare tested in the high watt bulb socket. The wire end will take a "fit" in the socket as the wire direction is shaped. I removed it and then flooded it with solder. I took a file and fine tuned its shape to the connection flat surface. Each socket ground ran into the trunk and met at the battery chassis ground lug. The relay trigger and ground wires were tye wrapped so then don't fall off. The relay main input and out wire are screwed on.

party hearty

Ronin,

Nice job. Very similar to what I did except I have a fused circuits from the battery to each of the relays (one for hi and one for low). That way if one of the fuses blows, I still have the other circuit working until I can replace the blown fuse.

Also, as I noted above, 12 gauge wire is plenty big, easier to work, and the connectors are more readily located without the "heroics" you went through to get parts to fit.

[Early_S_Man]

rnln,

No, your original posting of terminal #86 as signal and #85 as ground was correct! Distracted at the wrong time ... and I reversed them!

I keep both kinds of relays on hand, so it is important to wire the coils so there won't ever be a problem like fire or blown fuses if I happen to plug a different relay than originally used in a circuit!

I assume that most 911 owners appreciate that substituting a fog lamp or horn relay for the fuel pump relay in CIS cars won't result in a fire for the same reason!

[rnln]

Early_S_Man,

ahh, confusing. So that means Ronin setup "may" cause fire?
Let me do it again.

Relay:
85 to ground (car chassis).
30 to batery (+) terminal, with 40A FUSE (8g wire).
86 will be the turn-on-signal wire (+), connect to the headlight switch (can re-use the stock wire?).
87 to the headlight unit (+) (12g wire).
87a no use.
Headlight Ground can be connected directly to the chassis, no need to connect to the relay.

This time I can bet $200 on it that I cam correct
Thanks guys.

[Early_S_Man]

rnln,

Yes, that looks just fine!

No, Ronin's setup isn't a fire hazard, as he carries an identical spare relay with him at all times!

Bell's diagram that Ronin posted has the potential for becoming a fire hazard if someone is careless and happens to plug in a diode-equipped relay into the circuit as drawn!

As HarryD already stated ... your use of one fuse is questionable in terms of system reliability. A single-point failure can knock out all of your headlamps! A 30 Amp fuse to the high-beam relay, and a 20 Amp fuse to the low-beam relay will protect both circuits adequately. Those fuse sizes are based on loads of 100 Watts/ 14 Volts = 7.1 Amps per filament, and 80 Watts/ 14 Volts = 5.7 Amps per filament.

And, wire heavier than 12 ga supplying power to the relays is overkill.

[RoninLB]

I caught an eyeball of the Bosch relays in an FD/PD vehicle parts mag. Galls/ www.galls.com had only the non-diode 75amp relay listed. Then in Waytek/ www.waytekwire.com mag is a listing of 4 equally shaped Bosch relays. 50&75 amps with diode yes/no.

By default I bought the Bosch non-diode. Dumb luck safety for trouble shooting the circuit and not properly re-installing the signal and ground wires... Thx W.

The diode costs another $2.







BOSCH POWER RELAY
BOSCH # 0 332 002 150
FOUR TERMINALS, DUAL CONTACT
Price: $17.4515


BOSCH POWER RELAY
BOSCH# 0 332 002 156
4 TERM, PARALLEL/SERIES DIODES
Price: $19.4161

[rnln]

Harry, Early_S_Man, Ronin, Adam,
What an education. I got it clear this time. Thank you much guys.

[JeremyD]

Thought I would add to this since I am doing this right now.

No wonder I was having issues


New headlight connector

Also - where do I pick up the wires from the fuse box - and since I have an in line fuse - am I going to bypass the bullett fuses?

Thanks in advance.

[Early_S_Man]

Jeremy,

I can see why that socket would cause a bit of a problem with an H5 headlamp!