Camber adjustment on 65 912 w/ early strut tower design?

[vanwyk4257]

Grady, or others knowledgable about the early suspension design. I have a 1966 912 (early '65 build date) with the early strut towers with the single nut on the top. I'm trying to figure out what I can do to gain some negative camber on the front end for DE use? I would appreciate any and all suggestions. Thanks!

[75Carrera]

Michael,

I'm not an expert and I'm not sure if this is relative to your 66 but the struts on my 75 carrera needed an adjustment to create the camber specs my wrench recommended. I wanted the car lowered for both look and ride. This was accomplished by cutting the perch plates to allow for more adjustment room. I was told that early Porsches coming into the country had to be altered in the factory for ride height to meet USA specs. To allow the car to be lowered to a more desirable ride height and still give you plenty of adjustment room for the camber and toe trimming the outboard edge of the perch plate will amply allow for the adjustments. Mine were cut down about 1" and now my camber and toe are dead on. Let me know if this is of any help.

[Wil Ferch]

I think the issue here is that the VERY early 911 bodies did not use the 3 point , recessed hex, cap-screw mounts on each shock tower ....with large-ish holes to accommodatre camber adjustments. Your '75 is different ( 75= same as later cars, by being adjustable with large holes).

I concur that Grady Clay is a good candidate to answer this....

- Wil

[Early_S_Man]

The early top strut mount design was strictly intended for the 'Drill-hole-at-Factory-and-forget-about-it' technique that Honda still uses currently! No provision for readjusting camber 'in the field' ... much to the chagrin of Ing. Tomala, who insisted that assembly precision was adequate to assure permanent alignment within specs, per Paul Frere!

[304065]

Michael,

What chassis number? Early '65 911s didn't have adjustable front suspension until #302695, or about the middle of the run. Given that '65 912's were 450001-454470 (Karmann) or 350001-351970 (Porsche) i'd take the midpoint as a guide. Anyway, you should be able to look at the strut top and tell whether there's any adjustability in it.

Either way, I would recommend sourcing an SC or Carrera front suspension and modifying it to fit. Make sure you get Bilstein struts with the wedge, not bolt lower fitting, and fit a set of Chuck's Elephant Racing decambered ball joints.

I would NOT recommend going to the track on the original 41-year old suspension. The good thing is, Chuck makes bushings for the SWB cars, so you should be able to do up the rear nicely.

Good luck!

[vanwyk4257]

John,
It's about mid-point in the 1965 production year 452xxx if memory serves (Karmann production).
My car only has the single nut in the middle, not the three cap bolts as Wil stated above. I'm wondering if I can get more neg. camber from my current setup. I really don't want to modify the body on this car as it is quite original with only 40K miles on it. I'm wondering exactly what you stated which is whether or not I can make the later style suspension work somehow without cutting up the tub on my car, i.e., can I convert the struts to work with the single nut on the strut tower rather than the later three-bolt style top to the later struts? My car appears to have been equipped with Koni struts and shocks from the factory so I'm wondering if I can use the top sleeve from this strut on a later style strut? If I can do that I can always use Elephant Racing's de-cambered ball joints to get some neg. camber. I'm only going to run the car on the track a little bit this year so I'm not too concerned about the 41-year old suspension, all of the components look to be in good condition and I'll be going through the entire suspension and brakes before spring anyway. I mainly want to know if there is any adjustment for camber with the original suspension on this car.

[Grady Clay]

Michael,

I assume you don’t want to do anything to your car that can’t be undone.

I will absolutely second John Cramer’s recommendation.

My dad had a ’66 MY 912 almost identical to yours, built in ’65 and non-adjustable front. He took Factory delivery. I’ll ask him what date and VIN.

Get a complete set of later front suspension; alu crossmember, A-arms, steering rack, cover pan, struts, hubs and brakes. Use the opportunity to install torsion bars and the Elephant bearing suspension mounts.

Keep and restore your original suspension. I keep intending to make a bracket for mine and hang it on the wall.

You will love the later suspension geometry. It dramatically improves the “feel” of the car and as well as better handling.

Using Elephant camber adjusting ball joints will allow negative camber within some limits. At the time the solution for camber adjustment was to use a “port-a-power” to bend the chassis. You should devise a front strut brace where you can pull or push on the shock towers for both support and fine adjustment. This will have to be a modified version of the aftermarket products because I’m sure no one addresses non-adjustable struts.

If you can't get satisfactory camber-caster settings, it isn't too expensive to custom modify A-arms to get the desired settings.

Your 912 should have a through-the-body front sway bar. Get the current best adjustable set-up.

The 912 probably doesn’t have a rear sway bar mount. That would be a worthwhile thing to add. It welds on the inside surface of the rear frame and can be removed during a restoration to original if desired.

I recommend you find a good used pair of rear trailing arms and install the Elephant bearings. Look at the vintage racers for some welding support on the arms. You are also going to want to change the rear caliper bolt spacing to use more current vented rear brakes.

While you are replacing your rear torsion bars, pay particular attention to the condition of the inside of your rear torsion bar tube. Rust can substantially weaken it to the point of failure under load. While not easy to reinforce, it is a BIG $$$ repair if it fails.

Your ’66 almost certainly came with Nadella axles. For anything but strictly show, you are going to want to convert to Lobro axles.

A 912 is noticeably lighter weight than a 911. Consequently you don’t need as stiff torsion bars, shock valving or anti-sway bars. I will speculate normal street Bilsteins (at the most Sport, certainly not competition 911), 20 mm front & 26 mm rear torsion bars and 19/14 F&R sway bars.

Your tire choice and predominant use will dictate alignment settings. Keep close track of your tire wear – measure weekly and keep a log. Use a tire temp gauge. Have someone take high-res long-lens images of you cornering and study the angles.

The pre-’68 911/912 has a wide lip inside the fenders. You will need to roll those up to fit tires. You can fit 6x15 in the front and 7x15 in the rear if careful.

Before taking this age 911/912 on track, all the systems must be close to new – particularly brake master cylinder & hoses, pedal assembly, shift & throttle linkage, engine & transmission mounts and more. The structural strength of the chassis is particularly important. I would carefully inspect & monitor the rear shock cross structure, front suspension mounts, torsion bar tube and rear engine mounts. I’ll recommend against anything other than OEM 911 engine & transmission mounts.

A 616 engine either needs a dry sump or an extended sump & pickup (no, not the S-90) and a large Accusump. In warm weather the cooling is insufficient. The “Rubbermaid Solution” is mandatory. With some adaptation, you can fit a 36 hp VW crank pulley replica to turn the fan faster. You should track with headers without heater boxes. There are a lot of 356 and 912 racers that can give you more tips. An inexpensive data-logger with warning features may save an engine.

If this is your original engine and transmission, I recommend you find spares to prepare for track use. Having spare engine & trans is fun because you can tinker to your heart’s content yet still drive your Porsche.

A well prepared 912 is a fun track car for DEs. For track only cars the weight can be in the 1600# range with all the 911 track improvements. That makes 100 hp go a long way. If you are going that direction, start with a LWB ’69.


Best,
Grady

[vanwyk4257]

Wow! Thanks for all the info Grady!

I do have fresh brakes and a brand new ATE dual circuit master cylinder going in next month.

I will be changing all the hoses and flushing the system with DOT 5 fluid.

I'm also changing the front brakes to "M" calipers with vented rotors.

I do plan to change to 20/21mm front and 26mm torsion bars, perhaps next winter, at which point I would probably do the rest of the suspension mods, bushings, etc.

I am also installing a deep sump kit with extended pickup on the motor. I have aftermarket cyl. head temp gauges and oil pressure guages so I'm hoping by not revving the motor too high and keeping a watchful eye on it I should be in good shape.

I absolutely plan on removing the original motor and replacing it with something else as soon as my budget allows just as you recommended.

I am also flushing the gearbox and using Swepco 201 lube, installing a Rennshift gated shifter and replacing all the shift bushings.

For track/street I'll be running 15x6 fuchs with 205/50ZR15 Hankook Ventus RS-2 Z212 tires.

Do you know how your father installed the later struts on the front? Specifically, the later struts have the top sleeve with the plate for the three cap-head bolts, can I simply use the top sleeve from my early struts with the later housings to make up for that?

Again, thanks for all the valueable input Grady!

[buster73]

There is always a way, even with older cars !!!

[vanwyk4257]

Guenter, cool ride, is that a VW?

[buster73]

Originally posted by vanwyk4257
Guenter, cool ride, is that a VW?

Its an East-German Trabant "Station Wagon". Not my car (luckily). Just like the picture and thought it is perfect to explain what "negative camber" means.

[vanwyk4257]

A Trabant! I'll bet nobody in the soviet bloc thought one of those would ever get painted lime green and tricked out!

I just threw my refinished fuchs on the car tonight to see how they look with the 205/50's on them. I'm going to need to lower the ride height a bit now!